MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby imlawlor » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:09 am

I think far more people get away with murder or manslaughter than are ever convicted. Many times the coroner rules things accidents when they are really murder. So many missing people are said to have run off when they were really killed. Then add to that the murders that are never solved. Then there are plenty who beat the wrap in court with the help of a slick legal team.

I believe in the past many parents lost their tempers and lashed out at their children with dire consequences. Before all the forensic sciences and detailed autopsies they were often ruled accidents. This could just become another case. If they are convicted of anything it could be of the cover up and money laundering with the fund. They will however have to live with themselves and I don't think the marriage will survive the strain.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby kezwalk » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:33 am

imlawlor wrote:I think far more people get away with murder or manslaughter than are ever convicted. Many times the coroner rules things accidents when they are really murder. So many missing people are said to have run off when they were really killed. Then add to that the murders that are never solved. Then there are plenty who beat the wrap in court with the help of a slick legal team.

I believe in the past many parents lost their tempers and lashed out at their children with dire consequences. Before all the forensic sciences and detailed autopsies they were often ruled accidents. This could just become another case. If they are convicted of anything it could be of the cover up and money laundering with the fund. They will however have to live with themselves and I don't think the marriage will survive the strain.


Perhaps your right imlawlor but how many accidental deaths by parents solicit donations and have a Fighting Fund?
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby sentinel » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:14 am

Whatever wrote:
SallyGardens wrote:I agree, JimH; and I have said before that all this talk came from Clarence Mitchell spin, spinning and re-spinning the remarks of Alipio Rebeiro.

It is the Portuguese press re-printing the lies from the British press.
And that is all.


Ok, that's made me feel calmer. Sorry, I was elsewhere and just jumped into this thread without reading back, so perhaps it's already been dealt with. The Sky Forum doesn't seem to be full of apologists and they appeared to trust this poster who seemed to be bringing hot news. I was concerned by the 'Madeleine's finger' bit - it kind of made it sound like 'unless they've got something really really conclusive they're abandoning the whole thing'.


they still have to reinterview the T7, so can't see why it would be shelved before that happens.

just goes to show that clarrie has a purpose, he has a "point"

and some choose to spread his shite (I'm not referring to the posters).
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby HawkEyes1 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:16 am

potsy wrote:I dont think murder/manslaughter cases are ever closed....just decline to prosecute at the time...

Time is not the enemy....there are fallings out and people can come forward over time....

You are absolutely right, potsy! Murder and manslaughter cases are never closed completely.

With the recent "Honour Killing" Case in the UK, it took two years to arrest the mother-in-law and son, after relatives got tired of hearing the former boasting of how the daughter-in-law had been killed and thrown in the river, while they were on holiday in the Punjab. The husband had even taken out a sizeable life insurance on his wife before her departure. It took another seven years before the case came to court at the Old Bailey in London. The mother-in-law was found guilty of pre-meditated murder and her son, even though he was not in th Punjab at the time, was found guilty as an accessory to the pre-meditated murder of his wife.

As in the McCann Case, there was NO body, and that added to the complication of presenting the case, plus there was animosity on the handling of the evidence between the police in the Punjab and the UK authorities.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby astro » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:40 am

Good morning,

This afternoon, in Faro, an instructory debate is taking place, concerning the case of Joana Cipriano. The judge will decide whether the five PJ inspectors who have been accused by the mother of Joana, Leonor Cipriano, will face trial. Three inspectors, including Paulo Pereira Cristovão, the author of 'A Estrela de Joana', face accusations of torture, while another inspector faces an accusation of forgery of documents, and Gonçalo Amaral, the former head of the CID department in Portimao, stands accused of false testimony and a failure to denounce.

Opinions on the significance of this decision, today, for the PJ's image, differ wildly, as well as the views on whether a trial would be more or less beneficial to clarify this matter once and for all.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby kezwalk » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:53 am

astro wrote:Good morning,

This afternoon, in Faro, an instructory debate is taking place, concerning the case of Joana Cipriano. The judge will decide whether the five PJ inspectors who have been accused by the mother of Joana, Leonor Cipriano, will face trial. Three inspectors, including Paulo Pereira Cristovão, the author of 'A Estrela de Joana', face accusations of torture, while another inspector faces an accusation of forgery of documents, and Gonçalo Amaral, the former head of the CID department in Portimao, stands accused of false testimony and a failure to denounce.

Opinions on the significance of this decision, today, for the PJ's image, differ wildly, as well as the views on whether a trial would be more or less beneficial to clarify this matter once and for all.



Oh dear...
This is very worrying especially because Amaral was in charge of the McCann case in the early days. This means that if Amaral is guilty false testimony it could mean either of two things:
1. There could well be some validity to the McCann's plea that the evidence against them was being fitted up (whether they are innocent or not)
2. The defence for the McCann's if this goes to court will discredit the PJ and the work in the early days done by Amaral.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby sentinel » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:22 am

kezwalk wrote:
astro wrote:Good morning,

This afternoon, in Faro, an instructory debate is taking place, concerning the case of Joana Cipriano. The judge will decide whether the five PJ inspectors who have been accused by the mother of Joana, Leonor Cipriano, will face trial. Three inspectors, including Paulo Pereira Cristovão, the author of 'A Estrela de Joana', face accusations of torture, while another inspector faces an accusation of forgery of documents, and Gonçalo Amaral, the former head of the CID department in Portimao, stands accused of false testimony and a failure to denounce.

Opinions on the significance of this decision, today, for the PJ's image, differ wildly, as well as the views on whether a trial would be more or less beneficial to clarify this matter once and for all.



Oh dear...
This is very worrying especially because Amaral was in charge of the McCann case in the early days. This means that if Amaral is guilty false testimony it could mean either of two things:
1. There could well be some validity to the McCann's plea that the evidence against them was being fitted up (whether they are innocent or not)
2. The defence for the McCann's if this goes to court will discredit the PJ and the work in the early days done by Amaral.



it will spin and be spun,

but the british police were involved in the investigation too.

and the crucial evidence pointing to death was recovered by a UK forensics team and analysed in a british lab.

so whatever the outcome on the previous case, it needn't cause the mccann case to fold on the question of evidence or false charges.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby kezwalk » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:31 am

sentinel wrote:
kezwalk wrote:
astro wrote:Good morning,

This afternoon, in Faro, an instructory debate is taking place, concerning the case of Joana Cipriano. The judge will decide whether the five PJ inspectors who have been accused by the mother of Joana, Leonor Cipriano, will face trial. Three inspectors, including Paulo Pereira Cristovão, the author of 'A Estrela de Joana', face accusations of torture, while another inspector faces an accusation of forgery of documents, and Gonçalo Amaral, the former head of the CID department in Portimao, stands accused of false testimony and a failure to denounce.

Opinions on the significance of this decision, today, for the PJ's image, differ wildly, as well as the views on whether a trial would be more or less beneficial to clarify this matter once and for all.



Oh dear...
This is very worrying especially because Amaral was in charge of the McCann case in the early days. This means that if Amaral is guilty false testimony it could mean either of two things:
1. There could well be some validity to the McCann's plea that the evidence against them was being fitted up (whether they are innocent or not)
2. The defence for the McCann's if this goes to court will discredit the PJ and the work in the early days done by Amaral.



it will spin and be spun,

but the british police were involved in the investigation too.

and the crucial evidence pointing to death was recovered by a UK forensics team and analysed in a british lab.

so whatever the outcome on the previous case, it needn't cause the mccann case to fold on the question of evidence or false charges.


Thanks for the regrounding me in reality - there is one thing GMc was not lying about - its very difficult to remember the truth as there is so much [mis] information (and spin) out there. Thanks for putting it back into perspective for me - my critical distance collapsed for a sec
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby fedrules » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:46 am

[quote][/quote]'I believe in the past many parents lost their tempers and lashed out at their children with dire consequences. Before all the forensic sciences and detailed autopsies they were often ruled accidents.'

Recently in the country where I live,a couple were arrested for suffocating their two children on Christmas Eve.They claimed an intruder was responsible, which was quickly disproved.Their first child died mysteriously some years ago.The death was put down to cot death.Of course there are genuine cases of cot death,but it goes to show that parents,husbands and wives are still sometimes getting away with murder..
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby astro » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:58 am

kezwalk wrote:
astro wrote:Good morning,

This afternoon, in Faro, an instructory debate is taking place, concerning the case of Joana Cipriano. The judge will decide whether the five PJ inspectors who have been accused by the mother of Joana, Leonor Cipriano, will face trial. Three inspectors, including Paulo Pereira Cristovão, the author of 'A Estrela de Joana', face accusations of torture, while another inspector faces an accusation of forgery of documents, and Gonçalo Amaral, the former head of the CID department in Portimao, stands accused of false testimony and a failure to denounce.

Opinions on the significance of this decision, today, for the PJ's image, differ wildly, as well as the views on whether a trial would be more or less beneficial to clarify this matter once and for all.



Oh dear...
This is very worrying especially because Amaral was in charge of the McCann case in the early days. This means that if Amaral is guilty false testimony it could mean either of two things:
1. There could well be some validity to the McCann's plea that the evidence against them was being fitted up (whether they are innocent or not)
2. The defence for the McCann's if this goes to court will discredit the PJ and the work in the early days done by Amaral.


Hi, while I do understand your concerns, and agree basically that this is great material for another round of PT-police-bashing and throwing-mud-at-Amaral and other types sports that the UK press enjoy so much, I do not see, in objective terms, how this process can influence the case of the disappearance of Madeleine.

I do trust the Portuguese judiciary to keep the issues apart, especially taking into account that the British police seems to have cooperated and agreed fully with the development of this investigation, and the effectiveness of such an argument in court, I think, is rather diminute. It also seems to me that no sane defense team will ever resort to the type of accusation that was made by some individuals within the McCann camp, that the PJ deliberately 'framed' the parents. IMHO, this sort of approach would immediately ruin any defense's credibility.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby SallyGardens » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:03 am

Well said, Astro and very true.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby Whatever » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:04 am

Just a quickie as I have to dash out.

There's been much talk of 'circumstantial evidence' in which some of us are thinking this kind of evidence is of little value. However, reading Wiki (which is a reasonable place to begin research even if it's not entirely accurate) has revealed that this kind of evidence is hugely valuable. Regardez:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby sentinel » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:16 am

astro wrote:
kezwalk wrote:
astro wrote:Good morning,

This afternoon, in Faro, an instructory debate is taking place, concerning the case of Joana Cipriano. The judge will decide whether the five PJ inspectors who have been accused by the mother of Joana, Leonor Cipriano, will face trial. Three inspectors, including Paulo Pereira Cristovão, the author of 'A Estrela de Joana', face accusations of torture, while another inspector faces an accusation of forgery of documents, and Gonçalo Amaral, the former head of the CID department in Portimao, stands accused of false testimony and a failure to denounce.

Opinions on the significance of this decision, today, for the PJ's image, differ wildly, as well as the views on whether a trial would be more or less beneficial to clarify this matter once and for all.



Oh dear...
This is very worrying especially because Amaral was in charge of the McCann case in the early days. This means that if Amaral is guilty false testimony it could mean either of two things:
1. There could well be some validity to the McCann's plea that the evidence against them was being fitted up (whether they are innocent or not)
2. The defence for the McCann's if this goes to court will discredit the PJ and the work in the early days done by Amaral.


Hi, while I do understand your concerns, and agree basically that this is great material for another round of PT-police-bashing and throwing-mud-at-Amaral and other types sports that the UK press enjoy so much, I do not see, in objective terms, how this process can influence the case of the disappearance of Madeleine.

I do trust the Portuguese judiciary to keep the issues apart, especially taking into account that the British police seems to have cooperated and agreed fully with the development of this investigation, and the effectiveness of such an argument in court, I think, is rather diminute. It also seems to me that no sane defense team will ever resort to the type of accusation that was made by some individuals within the McCann camp, that the PJ deliberately 'framed' the parents. IMHO, this sort of approach would immediately ruin any defense's credibility.




well
lets see what tomorrow's british tabloids and a certain pink individual have to say about it.

i had a conversation with your typical british adult yesterday (about the case). One who had no knowledge of forum views and sub-culture and had based her opinions solely on what she had read and see in the british media.


Quite astonishing, the power of the press over the uninformed!
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby kezwalk » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:18 am

:mrgreen:
well
lets see what tomorrow's british tabloids and a certain pink individual have to say about it.

i had a conversation with your typical british adult yesterday (about the case). One who had no knowledge of forum views and sub-culture and had based her opinions solely on what she had read and see in the british media.


Quite astonishing, the power of the press over the uninformed![/quote]


I wouldnt say uninformed - just brainwashed by spin :mrgreen:
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD

Postby enfys » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:24 am

kezwalk wrote:
astro wrote:Good morning,

This afternoon, in Faro, an instructory debate is taking place, concerning the case of Joana Cipriano. The judge will decide whether the five PJ inspectors who have been accused by the mother of Joana, Leonor Cipriano, will face trial. Three inspectors, including Paulo Pereira Cristovão, the author of 'A Estrela de Joana', face accusations of torture, while another inspector faces an accusation of forgery of documents, and Gonçalo Amaral, the former head of the CID department in Portimao, stands accused of false testimony and a failure to denounce.

Opinions on the significance of this decision, today, for the PJ's image, differ wildly, as well as the views on whether a trial would be more or less beneficial to clarify this matter once and for all.



Oh dear...
This is very worrying especially because Amaral was in charge of the McCann case in the early days. This means that if Amaral is guilty false testimony it could mean either of two things:
1. There could well be some validity to the McCann's plea that the evidence against them was being fitted up (whether they are innocent or not)
2. The defence for the McCann's if this goes to court will discredit the PJ and the work in the early days done by Amaral.


Thanks astro.

kezwalk- they could certainly, and probably will try to cry corruption if they can, and attempt to use that to cast further doubt on the PJ's investigation (after all, this seems to have been their only tactic for the past few months and the sole purpose of hiring Metodo3). But, if any trial they reach is genuine, I personally don't think such a tactic would automatically be successful, any more than claiming that a fair trial is impossible due to adverse publicity (that they have deliberately generated themselves) is likely to work.

There were British officers involved in the case almost from the very beginning, so the McCann legal team would also have to argue either that all the other Portuguese AND British police working alongside Amaral were stupid (ie that nobody noticed that Amaral was fitting the McCanns up) or as corrupt as they claim him to be (ie in cahoots with Amaral in fitting them up). Even if either or both of those were the case, I fail to see how some of the evidence, forensic and otherwise, that has been reported, could be faked...unless e.g. the FSS, and UK mobile phone service providers, etc. can also be bought. (And if that is the case, I'd be inclined to believe that any corruption or influence went far above and beyond Amaral- and personally, that is still where my biggest worries lie).

This case was never all about Amaral, even at the beginning. If the McCanns ever try to make it all about him, it will simply look like desperate clutching at straws. I would hope that simply pointing to his conduct in a previous case would not be enough anyway, surely they would have to provide some concrete evidence of his doing the same thing in direct relation to them as well, for it to be taken seriously? And even if they do use aspersions cast against him as part of an eventually successful defence, it will just contribute towards a perception of them as having managed to deflect attention from themselves and all the evidence against them, and by so doing having 'got off' on a technicality- 'not guilty', but in the OJ sense only.

Lastly, even if Amaral is proven to have been dishonest (which he has not been, as yet), if I were the McCanns, I'd think twice before aligning myself with the mother of Joana Cipriano...I do not support or condone the type of things she claims happened to her at the hands of the police, but equally I have a very hard time feeling sorry for her, even if they did, and in light of her position, I prefer to be sceptical of her claims until they are substantiated by a court.
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