UK Fuel Price Protest!

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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby Tripz » Wed May 28, 2008 3:06 pm

lunalovegood wrote:completely pointless - we ALL need to restrict our use of fuel - peak oil has passed so its just tough - get used to using less.


Concur! We can use hydrogen technology...The reason we don't is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$... :roll:
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby littlepixie » Wed May 28, 2008 3:07 pm

bugalugs1970 wrote:You know i sat and pondered only the other night how i could use less diesal.....i can't...i walk my daughter to school everyday.....i walk to the local sainsburys and do my shopping daily.....i only use my car for journeys that are not walkable and difficult to get to on public transport.

When i got my diesal car, 1 1/2 years ago, diesal was 0.88.9 p per litre now its 1.27p per litre. In addition with the treat of increased tax on older cars (i can't afford a newer one) i am thinking of going to horse n cart........ :lol: :lol:

Have signed petition happily

This country is heading for a recession


I think we are already in the thick of one it has just been swept under the carpet. I've been in business for over 10 years (retailing) one shop in England and one in Wales - the good times have gone, some foods have gone up by £4 a bag in under a month. Wild bird food is going up by a £1 a sack a week its crazy.
No-one is spending anymore - last year was our worst on record both in England and Wales, so bad I have had to sell my house.
We are living hand to mouth and have been for a year.
Please everyone dont shout at the shopkeepers - it is not our fault that everything is going up ridiculously - its this stupid government, sold all our own oil now we are in the cr@p.
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby IsChildNeglectLegal » Wed May 28, 2008 4:46 pm

Scarlett wrote:
the_last_name_left wrote:
Absolutely..Nobody has an issue with this, the issue is the tax that the government is heaping on top of the price of fuel.

The UK pay more than double what the US pays for the equivalant amount because of government taxation..

Good on the truckers!


But that's just taking out of one pocket, and putting it in the other - nothing changes.

If the exchequer loses tax on fuel, it will HAVE to come from somewhere else. Or spending must be cut, and/or public borrowing increased.

Sure UK prices are higher than most anywhere else - but what is the income tax in France? higher. What is the beer duty in Sweden? Much higher. Etc etc etc

This isn't an issue which is going to go away - not an issue that 2p duty ios going to make a change to. It's a fundamental of industrial modern life that is about to change - complaining about 2p duty really doesn't address the underlying issue.

Instead of the 2p duty, why not get out of Iraq and Afghan? Why not scrap our nuclear subs? why not refuse to renew trident?

People who supported war for lies in Iraq have to take some responsibility too. We, the opponents of the war, warned of this situation - and we were called TRAITORS. Oh well.......

I was opposed to both wars and went to the marches. Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan is not going to solve the problem. We will still pay high tax's and the people of those countries suffer long term..
Though I don't believe a word of the story that the US and UK will re-build these countries. :roll:

Back to Britain! Heavy taxes on cigarettes, alcohol and non-essential luxuries.
The price of oil and its impact on the cost of everyday basics, is crippling the elderly and low income families and it is set to get worse.

The small hauliers are not the only group of people to be effected but they are the only group to speak out. The rest grumble behind closed doors.

When I moved into this house 8 years ago, it cost me £73 to fill the oil tank (900 litres) now I couldn't fill it for under £1000.
What about the elderly whose only form of heating is oil? What about the elderly or low income families who are trying to survive with the escalating price of food. As Britain is a democracy these groups of people have a choice and that choice is heat or food.

Britain used to be the country of the great complainers and protesters. We have become increasingly apathetic. We seem to have forgotten the suffragettes, Greenham common and poll tax riots.

For a so called socialised nation we have become increasingly more materialistic and capitalistic, we have lost sight of what is really important.



Sufragettes...yes Women got the vote & look what's happened, nobody can be @rsed now, same old Tripe gets in every Election & nobody gives a t*ss about the Edwardian Ladies who sacrificed themselves... :roll:

Greenham Common peace protests...acheived now't, Missiles were simple moved & the American President continues to ride rough shod over the rest of the World backed by his Oil $s & our @rse licking Gvt....

Poll Tax...Labour codded us all by changing it's name...& constantly increasing it & adding other stealth Taxes.. :evil:
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby Montgomery Burns » Wed May 28, 2008 5:04 pm

IsChildNeglectLegal wrote:
Scarlett wrote:
the_last_name_left wrote:
Absolutely..Nobody has an issue with this, the issue is the tax that the government is heaping on top of the price of fuel.

The UK pay more than double what the US pays for the equivalant amount because of government taxation..

Good on the truckers!


But that's just taking out of one pocket, and putting it in the other - nothing changes.

If the exchequer loses tax on fuel, it will HAVE to come from somewhere else. Or spending must be cut, and/or public borrowing increased.

Sure UK prices are higher than most anywhere else - but what is the income tax in France? higher. What is the beer duty in Sweden? Much higher. Etc etc etc

This isn't an issue which is going to go away - not an issue that 2p duty ios going to make a change to. It's a fundamental of industrial modern life that is about to change - complaining about 2p duty really doesn't address the underlying issue.

Instead of the 2p duty, why not get out of Iraq and Afghan? Why not scrap our nuclear subs? why not refuse to renew trident?

People who supported war for lies in Iraq have to take some responsibility too. We, the opponents of the war, warned of this situation - and we were called TRAITORS. Oh well.......

I was opposed to both wars and went to the marches. Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan is not going to solve the problem. We will still pay high tax's and the people of those countries suffer long term..
Though I don't believe a word of the story that the US and UK will re-build these countries. :roll:

Back to Britain! Heavy taxes on cigarettes, alcohol and non-essential luxuries.
The price of oil and its impact on the cost of everyday basics, is crippling the elderly and low income families and it is set to get worse.

The small hauliers are not the only group of people to be effected but they are the only group to speak out. The rest grumble behind closed doors.

When I moved into this house 8 years ago, it cost me £73 to fill the oil tank (900 litres) now I couldn't fill it for under £1000.
What about the elderly whose only form of heating is oil? What about the elderly or low income families who are trying to survive with the escalating price of food. As Britain is a democracy these groups of people have a choice and that choice is heat or food.

Britain used to be the country of the great complainers and protesters. We have become increasingly apathetic. We seem to have forgotten the suffragettes, Greenham common and poll tax riots.

For a so called socialised nation we have become increasingly more materialistic and capitalistic, we have lost sight of what is really important.



Sufragettes...yes Women got the vote & look what's happened, nobody can be @rsed now, same old Tripe gets in every Election & nobody gives a t*ss about the Edwardian Ladies who sacrificed themselves... :roll:

Greenham Common peace protests...acheived now't, Missiles were simple moved & the American President continues to ride rough shod over the rest of the World backed by his Oil $s & our @rse licking Gvt....

Poll Tax...Labour codded us all by changing it's name...& constantly increasing it & adding other stealth Taxes.. :evil:


But don't forget the Tories under Margaret Thatcher got so-called stealth taxes off to a fine art:

1979: Basic rate of tax down from 3p to 30p for the masses, whilst at the same time scrapping the lower rate band of 25% (today's equivalent of removing the 10p tax band - what goes round comes around) BUT:

at the same time, increasing VAT from 8% to 15%.

For the toffs, the top rate of tax was reduced from 83% to 60%.

So Joe Average on the whole was worse off whilst Hooray Henry was able to have one whacking great party. Mrs T presented this as a tax cut for everyone, and the majority of Fleet Street conspired in this illusion.

And in one budget in the early 80's, they knocked a penny off the basic rate of tax whilst putting a penny on NIC.

For Joe Average, the effect was neutral but Henry benefitted because NIC at the time was capped, so once you went beyond a certain point you got the benefit of the tax cut whilst not having to pay the extra NIC. Again Mrs T presented this as a tax cut for everyone, and once more the majority of Fleet Street conspired in this illusion.

So whilst the government gets hammered, quite rightly, for back door tax increases it is the Tories who originally mastered this black art and no doubt will continue in the same vein when they get in again.
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby the_last_name_left » Wed May 28, 2008 6:23 pm

Scarlett wrote:I was opposed to both wars and went to the marches. Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan is not going to solve the problem. We will still pay high tax's and the people of those countries suffer long term..


I didn't say it would "solve the problem". I meant that it would make much more difference to taxrates than the 2p........plus it would be the ethical thing to do, plus it could help reduce tension thereby helping reduce oil price, plus it might allow Iraq to actually develop, thereby allowing her oil onto the market - benefitting both Iraq and lowering world oil price.

Though I don't believe a word of the story that the US and UK will re-build these countries. :roll:


well, we don't even have a right to "rebuild" those places. Ocupation armies have no rights, only obligations.

And they're clearly not rebuilding those places. The whole thing is a catastrophe of the highest order.

Unless one sees it as a success, of course. It HAS been a success for security and arms companies - and the oil sector of course. Plus with chaos reigning in Iraq there is a justification for USA forces to remain on the ground, in their enduring bases. It's a success if they never wanted conditions which meant they'd leave.

IMO some part of NewLabour's unpopularity is because of this monstrous disaster. How in hell did a labour government do this? Maybe 1m+ dead? OMG!

Back to Britain! Heavy taxes on cigarettes, alcohol and non-essential luxuries.
The price of oil and its impact on the cost of everyday basics, is crippling the elderly and low income families and it is set to get worse.


Sure. But tinkering with fuel duty isn't going to achieve much at all. The problems are of a different order imo. It isn't about taxation so much as a crucial resource becoming scarce.

When I moved into this house 8 years ago, it cost me £73 to fill the oil tank (900 litres) now I couldn't fill it for under £1000.


Hmm. 8p per litre in 2000? Sorry - I don't believe it. I know it's gone up, but not that much. I think you must be mistaken?

The small hauliers are not the only group of people to be effected but they are the only group to speak out. The rest grumble behind closed doors.
...
What about the elderly whose only form of heating is oil? What about the elderly or low income families who are trying to survive with the escalating price of food. As Britain is a democracy these groups of people have a choice and that choice is heat or food.


Sure. But people went hungry and cold even when fuel was relatively cheap........

Some people starved to death even when oil was cheap. SO it seems odd to hear we should have cheaper petrol now, to benefit the poor, old and hungry.......especially when such cries come from the Tories, road hauliers, and the other capitalists. They didn't seem to care before - why do they complain now? [Note Bogus Boris Johnson's immediate cancellation of subsidised bus travel for people on dole and social security.]

Remember - the entire thesis of UK transport policy is based on price - reducing demand by rising prices - "pricing people off the road". Reducing demand for roadtravel by rising prices will obviously hit the poorest first.

The injustice is clear. But that's the entire basis of competitive capitalism and free markets - that distribution is determined by ability to pay - if you can't afford it, you can't have it. That's the principle that means some people starve to death already. The same principle that says if you can't afford somewhere to live then you're homeless. The same principle that says if you can play football or make Windows, you should earn unlimited amounts of wealth and privilege. And that if you're so poor you're hungry, it's just tough xxxx. So how can we justify hauliers getting 'special treatment'?

If the complaint is that poor people will be badly effected - then they should complain about that. I suspect their concerns are a little less altruistic.

Don't you find it strange to see Tories complaining about how fuel duty and cartax effect the poor? Such cynicism!

I'm as cynical towards hauliers, or any other capitalists who start complaining about how tough things are now they are having to tighten their own belts. See - these once vocal free-marketeers are now quick to run to government for special treatment. Suddenly government intervention is necessary, and we're supposed to forget about "free market"??

I'm sure I could run ANY business more profitably with a subsidy. Couldn't you? I could do with a subsidy for an eco business. Will I get one, or will the hauliers, the chemical companies, BAe, motorists? (See how clear it is these capitalists need subsidies/hand-outs? And yet they suggest only social security and unemployment benefit is a "handout". Subsidies to hauliers and arms manufacturers don't count as handouts? lol)

Britain used to be the country of the great complainers and protesters.


And of vicious capitalism, and a sharp class divide with large and rising inequality. Can't get too romantic about what sort of place UK is?

We have become increasingly apathetic. We seem to have forgotten the suffragettes, Greenham common and poll tax riots.

For a so called socialised nation we have become increasingly more materialistic and capitalistic, we have lost sight of what is really important.


We? I haven't forgotten! Nor have you? :)

My point of disagreement with fuel protests is that I don't think they stand in opposition to anything important, and that they're disruptive, divisive, short-sighted, misplaced, and far too self-interested. I think their claims about social solidarity and concern for "the poor" is essentially deceptive, I suppose. People were poor before fuel prices went up - where were the hauliers then? Where were the Tories and cronies then? Political opportunism.

littlepixie wrote:Please everyone dont shout at the shopkeepers - it is not our fault that everything is going up ridiculously - its this stupid government, sold all our own oil now we are in the cr@p.


In 1979 Callaghan said whoever won next election would be in for 10 years - because UK oil was just coming on-stream. Thatcher and the Tories won - and they were in for 18 years. Arguments can be made that the Thatcher years were financed by that oil - and it largely went on tax cuts and consumption. UK was a net oil exporter through that period! We were effectively self-sufficient. But the point is it can't last forever - and UK oil sales are falling sharply, and have been for a few years. UK oil is displaying "peak-oil" characteristics - it's falling precipitously.

Silly to blame that all on this government. Or shopkeepers....... :)
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby the_last_name_left » Wed May 28, 2008 6:30 pm

For the toffs, the top rate of tax was reduced from 83% to 60%.


It went down again, to 40%. (in 87, I think)
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby IsChildNeglectLegal » Wed May 28, 2008 11:25 pm

They are all p*ssing in the same Pot... :lol: look at the proposed "Rubbish Tax", why should the end user (you & me) get clobbered because Sainsburys/Asda/Waitrose/Tescos & the like force us to buy pre packed produce which they go OTT on ?
All done for the good of the Planet my @rse, all these things are made from raw materials that come out of the Ground so what's wrong with putting them back when we've finished with them?
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby the_last_name_left » Thu May 29, 2008 2:22 pm

For me the petrol protests look like this:

Image
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby Montgomery Burns » Thu May 29, 2008 2:38 pm

the_last_name_left wrote:For me the petrol protests look like this:

Image


Nah, that's just the rush hour on a typical Monday morning when the school's have gone back!
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Re: UK Fuel Price Protest!

Postby the_last_name_left » Thu May 29, 2008 8:41 pm

tarmac over everything and give petrol away for nothing!

whoopee!

Does anybody really want that? it's self-evidently absurd, so wtf are fuel protests supposed to achieve except raise tension, limit supply and encourage hoarding? (All of which lead to price rises, of course)

Maybe if we weren't such ruthless xxxxxxxx in the first place, the price wouldn't be so high, eh?
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