'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby devongirl » Mon May 19, 2008 10:12 am

On our local news this morning the police said that they believed about a quarter of the bone fragments found were human...20 of them.

Plus 6 milk teeth :(

So it seems the dogs did their job well.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby coppernob » Mon May 19, 2008 10:28 am

BBCNews 24 reporter has said this am that the skull fragment is victorian, report has now changed to skull fragment is human and dates from the 1940's so a bit confused here as these reports were only at the most, an hour apart :? They do have 5 bone fragments plus milk teeth and the bone fragments could have been burnt.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby PantsOfGanga » Mon May 19, 2008 11:37 am

So far, 20 bone fragments have been found in cellars at the former children's home - some of which are human. These are currently being DNA tested and carbon dated.

Jersey police said attempts may have been made to burn the bones.


It doesn't really matter if the original piece of 'bone' that began the search is a coconut shell or wood in lieu of what else has been found, does it.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby dogma » Mon May 19, 2008 11:43 am

PantsOfGanga wrote:So far, 20 bone fragments have been found in cellars at the former children's home - some of which are human. These are currently being DNA tested and carbon dated.

Jersey police said attempts may have been made to burn the bones.


It doesn't really matter if the original piece of 'bone' that began the search is a coconut shell or wood in lieu of what else has been found, does it.


Indeed, the dogs took them to specific area and human bone fragments were found there. Perhaps not everything that was dug up was human bone, but the basic FACT is that where the dogs inidcated, human remains were found. Not even Clarrie can spin that
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby fedrules » Mon May 19, 2008 11:46 am

No doubt there will be people trying to discredit the dogs as a result of this report and all these conflicting reports are rather confusing.However,the McCann case is a separate issue.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby Miss Take » Mon May 19, 2008 11:54 am

whitehound wrote:
Miss Take wrote:The evidence presented is that Eddie, trained in detecting cadaver scent, indicated that cadaver scent was present. Hence the video, Eddie's reaction is the evidence, not the scent itself.


It occurs to me that even if Eddie turns out to be right about cadaver scent at Haut de la Garonne, that will still weaken rather than support his evidence re. the McCanns. If he really has detected a scent of death at Haut de la Garonne then it is decades old and must be very faint, and that means he might detect a scent of death in the McCanns' room because - for example - eight years ago the room was let to somebody who worked in a funeral parlour.

If the dog went to Jersey and showed no reaction, that would be evidence against the McCanns, because it would mean that when he gave a positive reaction that meant there was a probably a genuine *and recent* cadaver-scent present. But the fact that he gave a positive reaction in a place where any cadaver traces were decades old only muddies the waters. Either he gives false positives, or he gives genuine positives to very, very old deaths: either of those means that the positive reaction he gave to the McCanns' apartment might be nothing at all to do with them.

[Of course, that doesn't prove it *wasn't* to do with them - but it removes him from consideration as evidence either way.]

For the record, I have no especial intetest in the McCann case - I only joined this list because a Google search showed some people on another thread were panicking about the fact that Kerstin Fritzl is "in an induced coma", and I wanted to reassure them that people who are on artificial respiration are always sedated unconscious because artificial respiration is very uncomfortable: it doesn't mean anything more sinister than the basic fact that they are on a respirator (which is itself not great news, of course, but nothing like as bad as they were assuming).

I don't like the McCanns much - they strike me as the kind of Yuppie type who don't believe that having kids should be allowed to interfere with their precious Lifestyle - but I've always thought that the most likely thing was that the poor kid wandered off on her own and fell in a ditch. The argument that she couldn't have done so because if she went outside she would walk towards the lights of the restaurant is ridiculous - she liked cats, and could easily have wandered down an alleyway following a stray kitten. The main evidence that she was abducted seemed to be that her toy was on a shelf and the parents don't remember putting it there - but it's easy to misremember that sort of small action, or they might lie about it because they don't want to admit she went looking for them to get her toy back, and got lost.


In short, if a body had been in the apartment, say eight years before, that should be simple enough to sort out.

Other reports of missing persons from PDL, reports of deaths in apartment 5A and missing persons/deaths connected with previous hirers of the car.

It would be an astonishing coincidence if there had been a previous death in 5A, and in the hire car, but all very easy trace.

It the apartment and hire car are not connected to any previous deaths or reported missing persons, I think it's safe to assume that the cadaver scent can only be linked to the one missing person connected with 5A and the car.

So, even if someone HAD died in 5A some eight years previously, they still have to explain the hire car and vice versa. No record of missing person, means they've hung themselves out to dry here.

I can't see how it weakens Eddie's position at all. Eddie simply indicates the scent of death, the rest is police work.

They have to show death connected with not only the car and the apartment, but with jeans that Kate bought in PDL and with cuddlecat. Eddie detected cadaver scent on all of these, police work will show whether or not it can all be explained away.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby free3 » Mon May 19, 2008 12:18 pm

just watching bbc news and they say human bones found, and they saying the bit of skull (MIGHT) not be human. so has it been tested and found human or not?
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby beachy » Tue May 20, 2008 6:29 pm

rainbowwarrior wrote:Quite simply , the scent of death is unreliable . Can anyone find one case where the scent of death has been accepted as evidence in court ? I think the answer is no . Thats why the McCanns insist there is no evidence that Maddie is dead .


There are at least two cases in America, which I have posted about previously.

One was the infamous Laci Peterson murder in California. The judge in that case admitted into evidence the testimony of a deputy from the Contra Costa County sheriff's department who testified in her capacity as a dog handler that a cadaver dog alerted to cadaver scent on a pier leading out into San Francisco Bay at the Berkeley, California marina and followed the scent to the very end of the pier. Laci Peterson's body was discovered some months later in San Francisco Bay, several miles from the pier.

In the other case, in North Carolina, the cadaver dog scent was even more crucial. A woman's body was discovered in a lake a few miles from her home. Her car was also found in a downtown parking garage. Her husband was indicted for her murder. At the trial his defence attorney tried to plant the idea that she was abducted from her car; however, a cadaver dog alerted to the bedroom of the home she and her husband shared, as well as to the trunk of her husband's car. There was no other evidence tying her death to either their house or his car - no blood stains, DNA, etc. The husband was convicted of murder.

Both cases have stood up so far on appeal.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby DIBarlow » Tue May 20, 2008 6:40 pm

Leo wrote:Might it not be at all significant? In fairness, if the dog made a mistake then it can be said that the dogs are not infallible. There is a major difference between a bit of coconut shell and a skull - like that is no murder victim. Be fair, acknowledge the possibility exists of the most excellent dog being wrong. They don't tell us if there ARE any other fragments though, besides the teeth, which were found near to coconut, but assumedly not, or they would?


The piece is very poorly written, on a par with most 'reporting' today. The dog apparently detected the scent of human remains. The article attempts to link the mistaken identification of a piece of coconut shell to the dog, but if you read the content there is nothing to suggest that the dog specifically singled out the coconut shell. Damned good headline though, eh?
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby tylersmum » Tue May 20, 2008 6:45 pm

This report is cr@p .To suggest that a forensic scientist would take weeks to tell the difference between a piece of coconut and a piece of bone is insulting.
The moment,if not sooner, that it is put under a microscope it would be evident what it was.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby roisin » Tue May 20, 2008 6:49 pm

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1603_jersey.shtml

Kids loaned out for rape cruises
Paedophile yachtsmen were given children to abuse at sea
By Lucy Panton & Philip Whiteside

CHILDREN from the Jersey House of Horrors were loaned to rich paedophile yachtsmen as galley SEX SLAVES, a News of the World investigation reveals.
The youngsters were told by care staff the boat rides were treats'only to be assaulted and RAPED at sea by pervert toffs.

Details of the sick attacks emerged as we discovered even more blood has been found in a bath in the dungeon underneath the Haut de la Garenne home'and in the drains.


UNDER THREAT: Ministers voted to have investigator Harper taken off case

And our reporters have been told how builders on renovations at the home were urged by staff to BURN any bones they dug up.

We also uncover the full extent of the dark forces of corruption hampering the police investigation.

We can reveal worried cops feel under so much pressure over the abuse allegations they are preparing to BYPASS Jersey's own legal system and hand their evidence to our government.

This could include files on up to seven social workers and carers who worked at the sinister home'including one nicknamed the 'pinball wizard' who HURLED kids against the walls to see how far they would BOUNCE.

At least two previous senior employees of children's services on the island are also under investigation despite the attempts of corrupt former policemen, politicians and businessmen to scupper the inquiry.

We understand that two weeks ago Jersey ministers SECRETLY VOTED to have senior police investigator Lenny Harper removed from the case because they believed he was too open with the media. But the Chief of Police Graham Power refused.

Explosive
A source told us: "Such important figures have been implicated in the cover-up of abuse on the island that the cops feel the evidence should now be passed to the British government

"The latest revelations are explosive. It is going to cause massive waves within the political and legal world and could bring the whole of Jersey's infrastructure crashing down."

One of the most serious lines of inquiry in the investigation is that children were regularly loaned to wealthy yachtsmen to "do with them what they chose for the day," according to our source close to the investigation.

Haut de la Garenne staff described the trips as a treat for children who spent long hours cooped up at the home. But in reality the kids were subjected to the vilest sexual abuse on board the luxury boats.

Our source said: "The allegations about the yachting community have come in from a number of different people. It is a very strong line of inquiry and when the evidence is made public people will be horrified."

Meanwhile about a dozen bones found at the home have been sent to a DNA lab to find out how old they are 'yet some bone fragments were too burnt to be tested.

Police have taken statements from local builders who were told: "If you find bones, get rid of them or burn them." New blood spots have been discovered in cracks in a concrete bath in the underground chamber and have also been sent for tests and sniffer dogs trained to find blood have found scents in the drains underneath.

Forensic officers are now focusing on the wooden trapdoor leading to a second torture cellar in a bid to extract DNA or fingerprints.

Our source said: "Detectives are doing everything they can to ensure every scrap of evidence is properly investigated. They are very aware that the home dates back to 1856 and some of these bones could be very old.

"This is going to be a long process but the officers have been presented with so many accounts of abuse and cover-ups it is crucial we get answers. People disclosing the abuse have been easy to ignore but finally they are getting a chance to be taken seriously."

The horrors being uncovered at Haut de la Garenne have revealed a Jersey tourists have never seen.

Former abused care home residents claim what happened to them has been covered up by those in high office, desperate not to tarnish Jersey's good name or risk politicians in London reducing their power over the tiny, but extremely wealthy, island.

Although Jersey is part of the British Isles and under the Queen's rule, it has a separate government system dating back to King John's reign, and makes its own rules and laws.

Jersey's 53-member parliament has no political parties. Its politicians, judges, policemen and business leaders come from a small elite'often linked by friendship or family.

The island's equivalent of our Commons Speaker is also its top judge'so the system of checks and balances between politics and the law we have in the UK is almost non-existent.

This is a place where the authorities allowed 43-year-old convicted paedophile Roger Holland to stand for election as an honorary constable officer' similar to a special cop in the UK, but with more powers. They knew that six years earlier he had indecently assaulted a mentally impaired 14-year-old girl and admitted molesting another girl. But he got the job and in 1997 rose to become vingtenier'the second most senior cop on the island's volunteer force.

In 2001 he was jailed for indecently assaulting a young girl in the back of a police van.

"Jersey has for too long been a law unto itself'it is time the truth came out," says our source.

Among those fighting for that is ex-health minister Senator Stuart Syvret, who resigned over the cover-up and has given statements to police claiming two senior legal figures were involved in the abuse.

Mr Syvret said: "I have given formal statements to the police concerning a number of establishment individuals. Officers I have spoken to are from a force external to Jersey police at the request of Jersey police." Solicitor Nick le Cornu is also demanding change. "Jersey's political class have for 60 years been ignoring and covering up poverty and injustice," he claimed.

Police investigator Lenny Harper, an outsider from Northern Ireland, was the target of a hate campaign' including threats to torch his house 'after a string of cops were sacked for corruption. Colleagues say Harper, 56, laughed it off, saying: "I had the IRA on my tail for years'so a few disgruntled people are not going to deter me from doing my job."

Now he's facing the biggest test of his career'on the island of fear.
"Their reluctance to return to Portugal is a clear sign that they are guilty."
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby MoeSzyslak » Tue May 20, 2008 7:58 pm

This whole awful story, the Jersey Children's Home, makes me ill. I hate reading about it, because it upsets me that much. I can't believe there are people in the world who are so evil, yet here's the proof in this story. And, it's not the only example of human monsters.
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby Iseult » Wed May 21, 2008 2:20 pm

Statement on Sky News shortly....
:bounce:
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby gotcha » Wed May 21, 2008 3:13 pm

Police conference on sky re jersey home,

In cellars they have found 6 milk teeth of children this has been confirmed by orthodontal experts and 20 bone fragments, these have been confirmed as being child human bones by forensic expert in the UK, Lenny Harper also confirmed these were the areas that the dogs Eddie and Keela were brought into,: this gets worse. 5 of the teeth have roots and they came from more than one childs mouth, some of the bones are definately homicide as they appear to have been cut, OMG :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: 'Human bone' at Jersey children's home - get ready for spin!

Postby gotcha » Wed May 21, 2008 3:14 pm

And Lenny Harper has just stated that the bone that has been rubbished as not being bone is codswallop, it WAS BONE, NOT COCONUT, his words CODSWALLOP,he said the press coverage of the victims and the investigation was being rubbished, so there we have it, it was bone and NOT coconut!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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