The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby Marcus66 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:44 am

Brit Abroad wrote:A poster asked about Medised ..... I know that this contains the anti-histamine diphenhydramine which is also in Calpol night-time formula. The data sheet for diphenhydramine clearly states that side-effects from overdose can be serious, even fatal.

The advice given with Calpol night is that it not be given for more than 3 days without referral to a doctor.

MY QUESTIONS FOR MARCUS

- does diphenhydramine accumulate in the body? If not why are side effects more likely with continuous dosage?

- if a child was given the formula every night, for say 6 nights, would this cause a severe reaction or death, or would it need to be an increased single dose to do that?

thanks.


Mi Brit Abroad. :wink:

In response to the above questions :
As discussed before diphenhydramine should not be used in CHILDREN younger than 12 years old, but safety and effectiveness in these children have not been confirmed.Diphenhydramine does accumalate in the body over a short time and is also tealtive to initial and ongoing dosages. IMO opinion a half life of 6 to 8 days dependant on dosages.
Increased dosages of original dosages may result in death but you are now talking about fatal doses being administered which SHOULD have been identified by someone in the medical profession. IMO a double dose accidently administered could induce a coma.

Medised and Calpol do contain Paracetamol and Diphenhydramine, but as we are always aware these are not like for like medication but manufactured in different ways.
Pharmacies who sell one and not the other are not IMO on ethical grounds but on feedback from other patients or on recommedation of certain drug manufacturers.

As for Tesco < Banning > Medised, I would think this was from a commercial point of view and not one of safety.

Poppers < Amyl Nitrate > expands blood vessels, resulting in lowering of the blood pressure.
Physical effects include decrease in blood pressure, headache, flushing of the face, increased heart rate, dizziness, and relaxation of involuntary muscles.
Overdose symptoms include nausea, vomiting, hypotension, hypoventilation, shortness of breath, and fainting. The effects set in very quickly, typically within a few seconds and disappearing soon after (within a minute).
May be inhaled to enhance sexual pleasure. Use is particularly prominent among gay men.Amyl nitrite is controlled under the Medicines Act, and although possession is legal, supply may be an offense, but can be bought quite freely on the internet.

Amitriptyline is not recommended for children under 12 years of age. I would not dispense it personally.


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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby Elemental » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:15 am

redbag wrote:
Elemental wrote:Ireland.

Another thing that was recommended to us by a psychologist for our Adhd fella, was synthetic Melatonin. It's not available in the UK or Ireland, but can be purchased in health stores in the US as a 'supplement' as it's not FDA approved as a medicine. Needless to say the lack of FDA approval put us right off that one, altough it is highly affective and based on 'natural medicine' as Melatonin is the hormone that regulates sleep patterns.


Melatonin is available in the UK and can be prescribed by a GP


Oh very good! We're missing out on so much over here :lol: We used to have to travel up to NI for Medised :shock: (don't use it anymore).
Let that be a lesson to one and to all, a person is a person, no matter how small.
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby azrael72 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:19 pm

i know first hand that when you have a child with some type on problem, sleepwalking/hyperness the medical profession seem to more eager to give drugs out to younger children even the ones that have an age guideline.....my son was given ritalin at 4.....it made him tick.....its a horrible drug.....calpol would knock him out with a normal dose.....it was only used when he had a temp.....the thing that worries me about calpol is that some people see it as safe.....and to now have calpol night......! :shock:
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby Elemental » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:26 pm

We too were 'offered' Ritalin, but considering one of the side affects is disturbed sleep, I thought a good run around the park was a better solution all round :lol:
Let that be a lesson to one and to all, a person is a person, no matter how small.
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby azrael72 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:56 pm

our son was on ritalin for 2 days.....never again....think just because calpol is advertised as a drug for children, its considered safe.....you can be taking a drug for years and then have an adverse effect to it. Any child given any drug for whatever reason needs to be watched and stayed with at all times.....and even the ones not given anything shouldnt be left alone in an apartment....ever!....thats just common sense..... :roll:
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby Elemental » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:55 pm

azrael72 wrote:our son was on ritalin for 2 days.....never again....think just because calpol is advertised as a drug for children, its considered safe.....you can be taking a drug for years and then have an adverse effect to it. Any child given any drug for whatever reason needs to be watched and stayed with at all times.....and even the ones not given anything shouldnt be left alone in an apartment....ever!....thats just common sense..... :roll:


I'd agree with that actually. Our youngest had temp spikes over a few days last year(just turned 2) and we were told to give her Paralink. Gave it as per instruction and kept a close eye on her. Went in to check on her 5mins after she fell asleep and she was convulsing in the cot. By the time we got to the hospital(literally 3mins away), she was completely blue and her BP was so low she didn't register on the monitor. Her temp had dropped to quickly, then spiked again causing a febrile convulsion, you can never be too careful with kids :? It took 2 hours on a drip(when they eventually found a vein) to get her 'pink' again. No long term affects thank God and it's never happened again.
Let that be a lesson to one and to all, a person is a person, no matter how small.
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby Snivelling Mole » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:58 pm

since being unwell the other day my 2 year old daughter has been asking daily numerous times for 'medcine' after i gave her calpol.

would some parents give this to keep the kid and their requests quiet? i certainly havent.
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby azrael72 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:04 am

my youngest is the same.....think he see calpol as a "all round medicine".....if people do use any type of meds as a quieteners that actually makes the child build up a tolerance to it.....effectiveness is then reduced and more is given as more is needed....
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby bibi » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:36 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1774

Marcuss, I would be interested in your thoughts on this article about 'Typical drugs used for dementia symptoms are Largactil, Serenace, Stelazine and Risperdal' and its relevence to the Madeleine case.

Obviously M was not elderly or suffering from dementia but in K's capacity as a GP she would in all probability be prescribing these drugs to the elderly, in her care, in residential homes. It is also possible that she could have used them on her own (troublesome? )daughter. Maybe M died of a cumulative effect of this type of medication because the side effects look pretty nasty. Could they be detected in significant amounts after death? Maybe this was what needed to be covered up and a post mortem avoided?
* Madeleine, you are forever in our hearts *
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby Snivelling Mole » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:00 pm

did anyone see that thing on tv tonight that included a bit about benadryl?
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby julygirl3210 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:45 am

bonnybraes1 wrote:@ mrsdiamondpants and snivelling mole - I am amazed that amitrypteline is prescribed at all for children - I take a low dosage because it does seem to help sciatica, but children...Marcus, what is your view of this?


I am surprised that amitrypteline is prescribed for children too.

About two years ago I had a slipped disc in my neck, which trapped a nerve. I had terrible pains in my neck, shoulder, arm and hand, and a numb finger, and had 3 months of physiotherapy. the disc problems took 9 months in total to ease properly ( and I still get minor trapped nerves now when the vertebrae in my neck move, for a few days at a time).

As part of my treatment, my GP prescribed amitrypteline every evening before I went to bed, along with 600ml Ibuprofen. The GP said that it would help as a muscle relaxant and relieve tension in the muscles around my neck. I only had one very tiny tablet each night, but it knocked me out within half an hour, and I used to sleep solidly with it (I am usually a terrible sleeper, taking ages to get to sleep, then waking several times a night).

Amitrypteline can certainly send you to sleep, it is not only used as an anti-depressant It could have been used to send a child to sleep I imagine, and very effective it would appear to be, judging by my own experience of it.
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby mrsdiamondpants » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:21 am

What about beta blockers eg propanolol. I've known medic who have to lecture take these for prevention of 'nerves' & 'shakes'. Used as anti hypertensive agent.
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby Photon » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:35 am

mrsdiamondpants wrote:What about beta blockers eg propanolol. I've known medic who have to lecture take these for prevention of 'nerves' & 'shakes'. Used as anti hypertensive agent.


Also used by professional stage performers to help control "stage fright"
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby fagawi » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:44 pm

Interesting post on Digital Spy forum....

From the perspective of an anesthesiologist...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just heard about this story tonight for the first time on Date Line NBC. Very disturbing. I have read a good deal of the forum tonight as well. Let me shed my 2 cents on the facts and events surrounding Madeleine's disappearance. I will preface by letting you know that I am an anesthesiologist.

1. We know the Mccans are doctors. It is mentioned frequently that Kate was trained in internal medicine and practiced as a general practitioner. More interestingly, what is not mentioned much (I found this in only one article in one newspaper) is the fact that at some point before this all happened she had a career change and must have gone back and trained in anesthesiology because she had been practicing as an anesthesiologist before Madeleine vanished and had stopped practicing as a general practitioner. This has relevance to me and to this story.

2. Anesthesiologists (in a nut shell) sedate people with drugs. We are trained to sedate both children and adults. With kids, sometimes we sedate them heavily for big surgeries, other times we sedate them lightly for something as simple as an MRI. We even sedate kids when they show up at the hospital before having to go into the operating room. This prevents them from having the worst anxiety of their lives and from throwing what has to be viewed as the worst out of control tantrum possible. This last practice is called pre-medication. In order to do this you have to get a kid to swallow the medication (which can prove impossible if the kid is already having a tantrum) or give the kid and intramuscular injection (which hurts like hell)

3. It is common knowledge that people taking sleeping pills to sleep or even to fly across the ocean. Many times they are taking drugs in the class known as benzodiazepines. This includes xanax, valium, ativan, etc. which all come in pill form. There are versions of these drugs which can be injected in the veins or in the muscle. To deal with anxious kids, someone invented a benzo that comes as a pink (bubblegum) liquid and can be given to kids. Usually this is done by drawing it up in a plastic syringe to measure the amount and then squirting it in the kids mouth (if they fight you, sometimes you have to pinch their nose to get them to open their moth and swallow it). You could just as easily give the drug with a spoon although you need to measure it beforehand.

4. These drugs have a strong effect on kids. They turn them from wild beasts into tranquil, sleepy, happy kids and then they don't resist going into the operating room. Additionally, kids can have unpredictable reactions to these sedating medicines that would include being so sedated that they might stop breathing. This is why these drugs should only be administered by a trained professional.

5. It is also common knowledge (although less common) that people "pre-medicate" their kids(with the pink liquid) on long flights to keep them from bothering everyone or from crying for hours. This is not something I recommend and I don't think it is an approved use of the drug. The last thing you need is to have a kid stop breathing in the middle of the ocean. This is why these drugs should only be administered by a trained professional in the proper setting.

6. Most of the people that I know who have pre-medicated their kids on airplanes happen to be anesthesiologists. This is probably because they feel comfortable and safe doing it and they have easy access to these drugs at work. This is wrong on many levels but I will reserve judgment.

7. From reading through the newspaper stories and threads I learned that, supposedly (reported by the Portuguese newspaper Tal Y Qual and later in other papers), there was a syringe plus or minus a needle found in the Mccann's place in Portugal. I don't know if this is true or not or if its has been confirmed in anyway. If it is true, you have to ask why it is there. This is not a normal thing to have around the house unless you are a diabetic, abusing drugs, or administering drugs.

8. My point is this. Kate is an anesthesiologist. Allegedly there was a syringe found in the house. Put that together with her diary entries describing Maddie as wild and difficult to control. And then add in the Mccann's storythey put the kids to bed at 8 and felt comfortable leaving them alone not worrying about the possibility that they might wake up and wonder where mom and dad are.

9. I think this might bolster the claim of an accidental death by overdose or even support the idea of a drugged kid who got out of bed and then fell and hit her head (i.e. blood on the wall) and died. Or even more troublingpurposeful overdose (murder).

10. Lastly, the day the Mccanns finally filed a lawsuit against anyone came the day after the story about the finding of the syringe by the investigators was published in the Portuguese newspaper Tal Y Qual. Seems like they got really defensive really quickly about something. And I don't remember ever hearing or seeing any direct denial by the Mccanns that a syringe was found in the room.

11. A general point.this case is open to unusual speculation because of the lack of facts and evidence that have been released to the public.

I hope this helps.and I hope I am wrong and that Madeleine is still alive somewhere and can be found.
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Re: The use of Opiates and CDs that can drug a child

Postby pakeha2007 » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:46 am

Good morning, all.
Thanks for posting this, fagawi.
With so information and it's spin generated overload, it's easy to forget that KM is a trained anesthesiologist.
Thanks again for a most thought provoking post.
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