BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Shannon Matthews went missing on her way home from school on the 19th February 2008, Shannon lived in Dewsbury with her Mother and Step Father. Please discuss

UPDATE Shannon Matthews Found Alive 14th March 2008

Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby peacelover » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:37 am

Farfromthe...

My opinion is that any justice system has to be measured by the general well being and comfort and perception of freedoms and responsibilities of its population.

So in that case the Greek justice system has to knock the UK one into a c*cked hat.

In Greece there is very little crime and very few prisoners.

In most parts of Greece it is perfectly safe for a woman or child to walk about alone at night - the main exceptions to that being touristy areas frequented by numerous holidaymaking drunken Brits.

Before people start citing Ben Needham as an example of Greece's dangers - the number of missing children in Greece is miniscule compared with the number that go missing in the UK.

I believe that the UK has deliberately been manipulated into a large dependent underclass, and the middle classes are being hoodwinked along in the same manner.

In Greece individuals have the freedoms to make decisions for themselves and familes are encouraged to stay together with various tax incentives for family businesses etc.

Laws which affect the safety and security of the individual are upheld rigorously and in general the population itself upholds them because such concepts as personal honour, shame and decency are still alive and kicking in Greece.

Laws which are seen as 'nit picky' are there in reserve for the police to use if they need an excuse to pull someone in who is causing more trouble than necessary, but don't tend to be obsessed about. Traffic violations are seen as minor and usually ignored unless an accident is caused in which case whoever broke the law and caused an accident gets to face up to those consequences.

BUT - people do not abuse each other, steal from each other (swindle is another matter of course), attack each other, molest each other - and politeness is the norm.

So I would say a justice 'system' which does not include a population with a strong sense of 'public justice' between themselves is a travesty.

What there is in the UK is a creaking 'control system' and justice has nothing whatsoever to do with it - just social engineering ideas that will soon prove to be one of the most pernicious crimes against a population in recent times.
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby Harriet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:48 am

When I think of the Shannon case I keep remembering the photos of police coming out of sewers, searching in streams, freezing cold work and not at all pleasant. No wonder the neighbours and friends are angry. I think that if this was a scam, it is unforgiveable. I think that people forget that although it is the work of the police to do these things they can't enjoy it.
In PDL the police gave up their holidays, were criticised for having a normal Portuguese lunch hour and then vilified by some for having their normal accompaniment of a glass of wine with this lunch. No one seemed to take into account the long hours they worked. They too were searching in the most noxious places and then called names, the sight of the child's parents out jogging in co-ordinated track suits must have really riled the actual searchers.
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby farfromthe... » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:53 am

peacelover wrote:Farfromthe...

My opinion is that any justice system has to be measured by the general well being and comfort and perception of freedoms and responsibilities of its population.

So in that case the Greek justice system has to knock the UK one into a c*cked hat.

In Greece there is very little crime and very few prisoners.

In most parts of Greece it is perfectly safe for a woman or child to walk about alone at night - the main exceptions to that being touristy areas frequented by numerous holidaymaking drunken Brits.

Before people start citing Ben Needham as an example of Greece's dangers - the number of missing children in Greece is miniscule compared with the number that go missing in the UK.

I believe that the UK has deliberately been manipulated into a large dependent underclass, and the middle classes are being hoodwinked along in the same manner.

In Greece individuals have the freedoms to make decisions for themselves and familes are encouraged to stay together with various tax incentives for family businesses etc.

Laws which affect the safety and security of the individual are upheld rigorously and in general the population itself upholds them because such concepts as personal honour, shame and decency are still alive and kicking in Greece.

Laws which are seen as 'nit picky' are there in reserve for the police to use if they need an excuse to pull someone in who is causing more trouble than necessary, but don't tend to be obsessed about. Traffic violations are seen as minor and usually ignored unless an accident is caused in which case whoever broke the law and caused an accident gets to face up to those consequences.

BUT - people do not abuse each other, steal from each other (swindle is another matter of course), attack each other, molest each other - and politeness is the norm.

So I would say a justice 'system' which does not include a population with a strong sense of 'public justice' between themselves is a travesty.

What there is in the UK is a creaking 'control system' and justice has nothing whatsoever to do with it - just social engineering ideas that will soon prove to be one of the most pernicious crimes against a population in recent times.



Thanks for your post it was really interesting, I suppose my concern is that I am not entirely sure that the uk population does have a sense of shame or public justice or responsibility (anymore?).

I absolutely agree that 'control' does appear to be the outcome of our current system, I suppose it's the real lack of consistency that highlights this.
For example the 24 hour drinking licenses were a step towards allowing the public and each local authority to be more autonomous in its decision making but we can see that the tabloids and many readers of those tabloids (whether they really understand it or not) are vocally very against it. It's maybe not the most straghtforward of examples but it does highlight, the way in which part of society would like to embrace the sort of system you described but whether we have spent too long being controlled or whether it's just not in our psyche to have self control anymore, whatever, we are not finding it an easy transition to make.

Often if you ask a lay peson on the street what they want and the responses are confusing and contradictory IMO.

Look at the way the media whippes up a fury about the rights we have to defend ourselves in our home, now actually our laws are pretty sensible about this and very few people are ever charged (although they may be questioned carefully) with walloping a burglar on the head of they break in but because the law allows that technically, if it can be shown that you used inappropriate force beyond what could reasonably be expected (still bearing in mind you might be petrified) a section of society was whipped into a frenzy where they wanted new laws to be written that actually essentially would have been no different to the one they wanted to replace.

So although in an ideal world I agree, actually the less laws the better, the more public responsibility the better, actually in reality with the public we have, with the history we have, with the behavioural problems we currently have we can't simply wipe those structures and supports away and start again. I think one of the biggest problems we have is actually a media system without much sense of responsibility that does increase negativity and a feeling of fear when often it's not warranted, where perception of crime is higher than actual crime... now that can't be healthy for any culture to live in fear.
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby diddy » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:09 am

Harriet wrote:When I think of the Shannon case I keep remembering the photos of police coming out of sewers, searching in streams, freezing cold work and not at all pleasant. No wonder the neighbours and friends are angry. I think that if this was a scam, it is unforgiveable. I think that people forget that although it is the work of the police to do these things they can't enjoy it.
In PDL the police gave up their holidays, were criticised for having a normal Portuguese lunch hour and then vilified by some for having their normal accompaniment of a glass of wine with this lunch. No one seemed to take into account the long hours they worked. They too were searching in the most noxious places and then called names, the sight of the child's parents out jogging in co-ordinated track suits must have really riled the actual searchers.


I can't help thinking that the Matthews friend and neighbours aren't angry because of what the police went through, but if there was a scam, they weren't in on it, or hadn't thought of it first!
The charade must go on.
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby Groom1 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:52 am

lst1976 wrote:
Sad Git wrote:The enquiry into Shannon's disappearance apparently cost over £1million pounds and involved dozens of officers.

Police have warned locals not to "take the law into their own hands". The family home has now been boarded up by Social Services.



The locals will probably do a better job at justice than the justice system in the UK



I can understand locals may be extremely angry and upset at being used in this fashion - but -
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby Groom1 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:58 am

fedrules wrote:
Can you imagine when the whole world finds out that it has been taken for a ride by the McCanns'


But sometimes I think if they really had killed Maddie,would they have had the bare-faced audacity to set up a fund?? :shock:


Oh Yus ! :shock:
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby Groom1 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:01 am

artemis1013 wrote:What a wonderful family. Jeremy Kyle fodder if i ever saw it. If i were the Mscams, I'd be worried. Some of that is coming there way eventually. xxxx floats to the surface eventually.


That's why they're desperately trying to become the Pope, Mother Theresa, Nelson Mandela and Ghandi rolled into two sanctimonious yuppies.
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby lst1976 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:00 pm

farfromthe... wrote:
lst1976 wrote:These people gave up their human rights when they decided to neglect, abuse, kill, assault their friends, partners, family, kids or strangers.

Take for example Tony King, he was arrested for his crimes in the uk, released and given back his passport. he came to Spain and proceeded to rape and kill 2 young girls.... you tell me does he deserve human rights? The UK let this happen and Spain put a stop to it and banged this animal up for the rest of his living years as he deserves.



I said 'our' human rights so unless you or I are criminals I'm a bit lost by your example?

So you think the Spanish justice system is better than the UK one?


sorry must of miss read the bit about human rigths, my believe is that they go on to much in the UK about the criminals human rigts

Yes I believe the system is better here in Spain
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby Mez » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:42 pm

lst1976 wrote:
farfromthe... wrote:
lst1976 wrote:These people gave up their human rights when they decided to neglect, abuse, kill, assault their friends, partners, family, kids or strangers.

Take for example Tony King, he was arrested for his crimes in the uk, released and given back his passport. he came to Spain and proceeded to rape and kill 2 young girls.... you tell me does he deserve human rights? The UK let this happen and Spain put a stop to it and banged this animal up for the rest of his living years as he deserves.



I said 'our' human rights so unless you or I are criminals I'm a bit lost by your example?

So you think the Spanish justice system is better than the UK one?


sorry must of miss read the bit about human rigths, my believe is that they go on to much in the UK about the criminals human rigts

Yes I believe the system is better here in Spain


I agree the perpetrator you are talking about gave up his human rights by acting inhumanely imho.
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby farfromthe... » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:53 pm

lst1976 wrote:
sorry must of miss read the bit about human rigths, my believe is that they go on to much in the UK about the criminals human rigts

Yes I believe the system is better here in Spain



Re: Spain fair enough but I specifically said 'our' human rights because we all have them and if we were to make substantial changes to the rule of law etc then this could damage them for ALL of us. I like my human rights (at least the ones I have left) thanks :lol:
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Re: BBC - Karen Matthews "Hid Shannon's Wherabouts"

Postby artemis1013 » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:28 pm

Groom1 wrote:
artemis1013 wrote:What a wonderful family. Jeremy Kyle fodder if i ever saw it. If i were the Mscams, I'd be worried. Some of that is coming there way eventually. xxxx floats to the surface eventually.


That's why they're desperately trying to become the Pope, Mother Theresa, Nelson Mandela and Ghandi rolled into two sanctimonious yuppies.


Very true. I somehow think that will all unravel in time. Hopefully. :D
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