Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

If you have problems then perhaps one of the members might have a suggestion or tell you how they coped with a certain situation. Also we could post links for all children that are missing and need to be found. All aspects of child welfare discussed here, new and old cases. Children that have been let down by Social Services and the authorities.

Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby koh_i_noor » Tue May 06, 2008 11:30 pm

o lord explore down to deepest springs of my spirit where the spirit makes intercession for us and read the prayers i cannot utter . oswald chambers i hope you dont mind this one is for hope this prayer its from my book of prayers
peace and blessings to find the beginning you must start at the end
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby xxdelly » Tue May 06, 2008 11:31 pm

cushty wrote:from the Daily Mail online today

Dr Albert Reiter, who is treating Kerstin, said that while her condition is still "grave", it has improved and her life is no longer in danger.


That's good news, cushty - thanks for letting us know.

One day at a time.

They do have a bright future now, it will be difficult and will take time.

I also have to agree with Icarus - thank you Mods/Admin for letting this thread run.
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby whitehound » Wed May 07, 2008 1:07 am

Hi. I came across this discussion when I was Googling for news on how Kerstin Fritzl was doing, and I joined because I felt I wanted to comment.

There's actually nothing very sinister about her being in an induced coma: it's just a side-issue of her needing to be on a respirator. A friend who is an Intensive Care ward sister tells me that patients who need artificial respiration in ICU are *always* put into an induced coma for the duration, simply because the tubes etc involved are really uncomfortable if the patient is awake.

Multiple organ failure isn't good news, of course, but patients who are in Intensive Care often do have multiple organ failure, and IC units are equipped to deal with this and do usually succeed in saving the patient. So long as her brain and about a quarter of her liver keep going, everything else is pretty-much negotiable these days.

And of course, if the poor girl was conscious at the moment she would no doubt be very confused and and distressed, waking up surrounded by strangers and harsh lighting and stuck full of tubes. It's probably best for her to stay sedated until she is well enough to be moved to a much quieter venue.

As to how the family will cope, obviously they will be severely affected by this for life, but at the same time prisoners who e.g. spent decades in Soviet prisons did usually manage to get their psychological bearings and make a reasonable life for themselves in the end, although it took a long time. And Elizabeth, at least, is obviously very strong. She was imprisoned when she was only a teenager, before she'd had a chance to acquire much in the way of experience or life-skills, and yet she's obviously done an impressive job as a mother and home-maker in horrible circumstances. Her willpower, self-discipline and common-sense must all be immense, and she would probably make a marvellous teacher or manager of a charity or similar.

It's going to be very nasty for them all to know that they share so much genetic material with such a ghastly bloke, but IMO classing him as insane is the best move, whether it's actually true or not. It will make it easier for his victims to accept that the way he treated them was because there was something very wrong with him, not something wrong with them, which is often a big issue with abuse survivors. If a mad dog bites you, you know it's the dog that has the problem, not you. And if he's considered to be sane and jailed as a criminal he'll have to be released after a set time, whereas if he's classed as mad he can be sectioned and sent to a secure psychiatric unit *permanently*.
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby Pam » Wed May 07, 2008 1:54 am

Welcome Whitehound.

I think Elisabeth must also be an extremely strong human being.

You make such an excellent point about having the father declared as insane. I have wished for criminal offense so he can go into the general population of a prison, and let the other men "take care" of him. I want him to feel pain, to be SCARED like a caged animal.

Edited to say: here, in USA, in prison, child molesters are on the lowest rung, and treated as so. I assume the same in other countries. That is what I meant as "take care" of him.

If termed *insane* and locked in a psychiatric unit would help Elisabeth, then OK. They should do that.

Elisabeth and her family are in my prayers.
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby wolfie_smith » Wed May 07, 2008 4:02 am

This was a post on DS by 'speak-softly' , in response to a question
"Why can't the kids speak properly?"

The last paragraph says it all about Elizabeth.



And they would have what to speak about?

Day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year,
everyday the same, no hope of change and the minimal amount of
stimulation.

I think you need to start to understand better what these people
have been through.

How long would any of us last without going insane?

How often would we practice speaking when there is never anything
to speak about?

How many fairy stories can you make up, how many ways can you start
a conversation about nothing?

How many years before despair took over and you give up?

There was a report about lack of oxygen as well I read somewhere,
what effect would that have long term on the ability to think straight,
or to even seek any stimulation.

Good God, just look at how much fuss people sometimes make if the
room they are in gets a bit stuffy.

I think the mother has to be one of the bravest, most incredible people
I have ever heard about. She kept three children alive,
the eldest for 19 years in conditions that are beyond human endurance.
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby Primavera » Wed May 07, 2008 6:33 am

Wolfie,

I was thinking along those lines on my way to work yesterday. My daughter's little boy is 20 months old and I see his mother doing the things I did when she was small. From being a few days old, he was taken out every day, when weather allowed, for a walk through a local park, where the pram was pushed under over-hanging trees; there were sounds of birds, people and traffic. Whoever was with little laddie would talk incessantly about sky, trees, wind, flowers etc etc. Just before Christmas last year, when the evening had grown dark, little one wanted to see the moon. Since we couldn't see it from a window, I took him out in his buggy.

When we read stories with the moon, my grandson's point of reference is the real one he has seen so often. The trees, flowers, cars, etc., he has seen and knows about them in a real context. He is learning about himself in relation to his ever-expanding world and his world view grows by increments.

A child who is born in an underground shelter, and has never left it? What are his points of reference? What about diurnal rhythms? I wake early in summer because it is light. I find it difficult to sleep when the evening is light until very late. Research has shown that people deprived of natural light settle into a different diurnal rhythm to the rest of us. Nineteen years of a different rhythm and how does a young person adjust?
"I can no longer observe such pleased mad faces."
("Killers," by Alice Walker.)

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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby whitehound » Wed May 07, 2008 6:47 pm

Ouch, yes, good point, they're all going to have horrible jetlag until their systems adjust. No wonder the mother has to keep taking naps.

As for what they spoke about, presumably they endlessly analysed whatever was on the telly. Talking was just about all there was to do, after all, and some reports have said it's simply not true that they can't speak properly. I would guess that what's happened is that they've developed their own private family dialect and accent, which no-one but them understands very well.

I was at university with a super-intelligent, genius-level guy who had a really strong Motherwell accent, and somebody who met him and didn't know the accent actually thought that he was severely mentally handicapped and was just making wahwah noises.
Last edited by whitehound on Wed May 07, 2008 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby Primavera » Wed May 07, 2008 6:50 pm

whitehound wrote:Ouch, yes, good point, they're all going to have horrible jetlag until their systems adjust. No wonder the mother has to keep taking naps.

As for what they spoke about, presumably they endlessly analysed whatever was on the telly. Talking was just about all there was to do, after all, and some reports have said it's simply not true that they can't speak properly. I would guess that what's happened is that they've developed their own private family dialect and accent, which no-one but them understands very well.

I was at university with a super-intelligent, genius-level guy who had a really strong Motherwell accent, and somebody who met him and didn't know the accent actually thought that he was severely xxxxxxxx and was just making wahwah noises.



I am from Coatbridge, which is very close to Motherwell. After years, my ex-husband still had trouble understanding what my mother was saying.
"I can no longer observe such pleased mad faces."
("Killers," by Alice Walker.)

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby wolfie_smith » Wed May 07, 2008 7:36 pm

As the children had no experience whatsoever , of the outside world ,
or even that it existed at all.

Wouldn't they view the images on the TV screen as a strange , unreal ,
world , confined to that box ??? , which bore no relation to their own
existence ?

How would you process that? , treat it as fantasy and ignore it? , or
create painful psychic confusion by trying to 'analyse' it?

What would your frames of reference be , to carry out an 'analyses'?

I think the sheer volume and diversity of external stimuli , we are all
subjected to from birth is mind boggling and seriously under-estimated
by everybody , 'experts' included.

This is probably why it takes such a long time for babies , infants and
small children to process it , analyse it , integrate it , into their being.

Trying to put yourself in their position is truly mind boggling !!!
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby artemis1013 » Wed May 07, 2008 8:00 pm

I have no faith in anything but will light a candle to focus my thoughts and remembering her and all her family have suffered. I wish her well and the rest of this tragic family and hope their lives will be much better now. .
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby Primavera » Wed May 07, 2008 8:19 pm

wolfie_smith wrote:As the children had no experience whatsoever , of the outside world ,
or even that it existed at all.

Wouldn't they view the images on the TV screen as a strange , unreal ,
world , confined to that box ??? , which bore no relation to their own
existence ?

How would you process that? , treat it as fantasy and ignore it? , or
create painful psychic confusion by trying to 'analyse' it?

What would your frames of reference be , to carry out an 'analyses'?

I think the sheer volume and diversity of external stimuli , we are all
subjected to from birth is mind boggling and seriously under-estimated
by everybody , 'experts' included.

This is probably why it takes such a long time for babies , infants and
small children to process it , analyse it , integrate it , into their being.

Trying to put yourself in their position is truly mind boggling !!!


Interesting wolfie. This is why I think Teletubbies and In The Night Garden are brilliant TV programmes for very small children; flat, simple shapes of a single colour, uncluttered images, simple repetition of patterns in actions and speech and sequencing repeated and slightly altered.

Since my grandson was born, I am back to buying books for very small children. Board books with lots of text and busy images are useless for very young ones, whose visual cortex is not developed enough to distinguish figure from cluttered ground; they need images in the style of Teletubbies. They also need images relevant to what experience they do have of the world; babies, trees, familiar items in their home, flowers etc. My 20 month-old grandson has had books in his hands since he could grasp . I was playing with playdough with him a few days ago, with a variety of cutters....he picked up the letter shape, 'l,' and said, "One."

He's 20 months old and he points to wheelie bins in the street in Leicester, near his home, and says, "flower." (If you live in the area, this will make sense!) In the rain, he says, "***** head wet now."
When I think of how young he is, and the range of experience he has of the world, and that this is so much more than 19 year-old Kerstin, it comes home to me just how sad Kerstin's situation has been. Kerstin will never have felt the rain on her head, or like my little grandson, gleefully leapt up and down in the sea, and that's sad.
"I can no longer observe such pleased mad faces."
("Killers," by Alice Walker.)

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby whitehound » Wed May 07, 2008 8:23 pm

wolfie_smith wrote:As the children had no experience whatsoever , of the outside world ,
or even that it existed at all.

Wouldn't they view the images on the TV screen as a strange , unreal ,
world , confined to that box ??? , which bore no relation to their own
existence ?

How would you process that? , treat it as fantasy and ignore it? , or
create painful psychic confusion by trying to 'analyse' it?

What would your frames of reference be , to carry out an 'analyses'?

Trying to put yourself in their position is truly mind boggling !!!


Leaving aside the insane sex-crazed jailor, it's a very interesting test-case for how people would cope long-term on space-ships or in real nuclear bunkers. One wonders what on earth the mother told the kids about why they were living inside a bunker when the people they could see on the screen could walk about outside.

Whatever she told them, though, she knew that much of what was on the screen was real and all of it was elsewhere, and presumably she would explain that to them. They would only think that what was on the screen was happening inside the box if *none* of them had ever seen or been told about the outside world. And she told them stories about pirates and princesses, so she must have talked to them about other people, about oceans and ships and horses and castles and governments.
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby beachy » Wed May 07, 2008 9:32 pm

When I was at uni, one of my friends came from a small island that was linked to the mainland only by a three-times-per week run from a mail boat. She lived with her widowed grandfather, who was quite poor and unable to afford vacations off island or trips for her to go to the mainland.

This was in the late 1960s, and the things that she had never seen were unbelievable to the rest of us. She had never seen a paved road, a shower, a television (no reception), an automobile, a store larger than the little general store they had, much less a shopping mall, an adding machine (this was before hand-held calculators were common), an airplane other than from thousands of feet as it flew overhead, a city bus, a tractor, a bulldozer, a train - I could go on for an hour.

She had no concept of how something like a subway would look or how it could exist. Mechanised cars that ran on a track UNDER the ground? Ye gods!

She was incredibly well-read in the classics, as that is about all they had in her school's small library. She had seen a few magazines but did not seem to really understand how to integrate the ideas of what she had seen in them into real life.

Those of us who were her friends had to take her in hand and teach her how to function in the modern world. I walked into the large bathroom that was shared by girls from several rooms in the dormitory one day to find the shower stall overflowing. She was sitting on the drain on the floor of the shower trying to make a tub of it so she could take the kind of bath she was used to.

It was almost as if she had been lifted from another century and planted in the midst of a different civilisation, and she was utterly alone in that. At least Elisabeth Fritzl and her children have each other.

I predict that with care and assistance from sympathetic doctors, teachers, social workers, and physical therapists, Elisabeth and her children can learn to enjoy the simple pleasures of life and lead a relatively healthy existence. It won't be a life that would satisfy most of us, but considering where they have been, I think they may derive a great deal of joy from it.
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby cushty » Wed May 07, 2008 10:32 pm

it is instinctive to pity the children most, but surely Elizabeth has suffered the most horrendously, as she knew what had been taken away from her just when her adult life was beginning

she knew what had happened to her, and for 4 years she was alone down there - the first child, even though coming in such unspeakable circumstances, must nevertheless have helped her a little

but to have 7 children without professional help - how frightened and how despairing she must have been

it would surely be more than enough to drive anyone insane
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Re: Please say a prayer for Kerstin Fritzl tonight....

Postby somthinfishie » Wed May 07, 2008 11:00 pm

I don`t believe in much,just the love we each have for our fellow beings,so that is what I send to Elizabeth and her children,hoping that they can all live long and peacefull lives.xx~~fishie
we have to speculate about the situation Madeleine finds herself (in).

Gerry McCanns blog day 184.


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