So was it a mistake or not ?

Madeleine Beth McCann went missing from PDL in Portugal on the 3rd May 2007, there are so many unanswered questions, please discuss

So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby Spartacus » Fri May 30, 2008 12:20 pm

Since the begining, the McCann defenders in the media ( and on the forums ) have expressed outrage that the McCanns have been blamed for what happened that night

They made a MISTAKE, they protest ... and we all make mistakes. They made a mistake and they'll suffer and pay for it for the rest of their lives, it's inhumane to critisise them for it now, they plead

Even Clarence Mitchell said it to John Gaunt ( it's on you-tube ) .. here's a direct transcript :

"Nobody regrets more the fact that they lef... they were not with her when she was taken than they themselves. It is something they will live for for the rest of their lives, and they would accept that they made a mistake on the night"

... and yet yesterday Clarence had this to say :

"If there is any suggestion of neglect charges being considered that will be vigorously denied because legal advice that Kate and Gerry have received both in Portugal and Britain is that legally speaking everything they were doing that week was well within the bounds of responsible parenting"

So it WASN'T a mistake then ? ... they were perfectly at liberty to do what they did that week ... and are perfectly at liberty to continue doing it in the future ( as are we all ) ?

This is going to be difficult for the vast majority of McCann defenders who have acknowledged that they shouldn't have left the children alone like that ... because now the McCanns are saying there was absolutely nothing wrong with it
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby Salomon ES » Fri May 30, 2008 12:29 pm

It should also be disconcerting for British social services. Clarence Mitchell suggested that these parents believe that their behaviour was legal, therefore acceptable - and is therefore likely to be repeated - potentially endangering the twins.

Irrespective of breaching the law or not, British child care authorities should be there to take preventative actions against behaviours that endanger children. Child care authorities are not there to enforce or examine the applicable laws. That is primarily up to police and the judiciary.

Social services should act now before anything worst happens.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby notdeadfred » Fri May 30, 2008 12:33 pm

Salomon ES wrote:It should also be disconcerting for British social services. Clarence Mitchell suggested that these parents believe that their behaviour was legal, therefore acceptable - and is therefore likely to be repeated - potentially endangering the twins.

Irrespective of breaching the law or not, British child care authorities should be there to take preventative actions against behaviours that endanger children. Child care authorities are not there to enforce or examine the applicable laws. That is primarily up to police and the judiciary.

Social services should act now before anything worst happens.



Social services visited the McCanns in Rothely, and declared the twins to be in no danger, way back in September :(
It was our holiday too
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby LittleGreyCell » Fri May 30, 2008 12:41 pm

Spartacus wrote:...

"If there is any suggestion of neglect charges being considered that will be vigorously denied because legal advice that Kate and Gerry have received both in Portugal and Britain is that legally speaking everything they were doing that week was well within the bounds of responsible parenting"


Quite apart from the backtracking of which Clarrie has recently become so fond, how many parents would be happy to leave their small toddlers alone - for hours on end - and regard this as "responsible parenting"?

And which law exactly prescribes such an action as acceptable?
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby JillyComeLately » Fri May 30, 2008 12:42 pm

.
Yep the issue has come full circle.

Anyone who thought they heard the McCanns admitting to anything other than responsible parenting, heard wrong. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby mrsgaz » Fri May 30, 2008 12:45 pm

What gets me is that they say it was well within the bounds of responsible parenting - not even just 'within the bounds of responsibile parenting'.

Oh and just called Childline about it - they said that if I did that it would not be recommended, especially for such young children (said I could not get babysitter for the night, 2 kids aged 2 and 4 and would it be safe to go to house 7 doors down for BBQ, and checking every 30-40 minutes). So clearly Childline need to take legal advice as they don't know what they are talking about!!!!

(In other words sounds like more Clarrie spin)
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby Spartacus » Fri May 30, 2008 12:53 pm

It's interesting too, that Clarence checked himself when he was about to say "nobody regrets more the fact that they left her alone" ... and quickly changed it to "nobody regrets more the fact that they were not with her"

It's an odd phrase that Kate and Gerry McCann have often used themselves ... "we regret that we were not with her at the moment she was taken" ( and I think I recall that Ma Healy has used too )

It's as if they've been coached to never, EVER, say the words 'left alone'
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby cassen » Fri May 30, 2008 1:01 pm

Spartacus, the key words are 'legally speaking'.
We are 'morally speaking', and that makes the whole difference. When it suits somebody, he can lower the moral level far down than he would normally do. I have trouble making myself clear but it's not difficult (I hope) to see what I mean.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby Katherine » Fri May 30, 2008 1:08 pm

notdeadfred wrote:
Salomon ES wrote:It should also be disconcerting for British social services. Clarence Mitchell suggested that these parents believe that their behaviour was legal, therefore acceptable - and is therefore likely to be repeated - potentially endangering the twins.

Irrespective of breaching the law or not, British child care authorities should be there to take preventative actions against behaviours that endanger children. Child care authorities are not there to enforce or examine the applicable laws. That is primarily up to police and the judiciary.

Social services should act now before anything worst happens.



Social services visited the McCanns in Rothely, and declared the twins to be in no danger, way back in September :(



I don't remember social services making any such statement - we have no idea if the twins have been placed on the "at risk" register. However a couple of things are worth noting:

- after Social services visit the McCanns were no longer using the twins in their press campaign - coincidence or orders?
- since the social services visit the McCanns do not appear to have been home alone - they always have "friends and family" staying with them - ever since May 3rd 2007. So is this their choice or have social services ordered that they must have other adults in the house at all times?
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby fedrules » Fri May 30, 2008 1:12 pm

Spartacus wrote:It's interesting too, that Clarence checked himself when he was about to say "nobody regrets more the fact that they left her alone" ... and quickly changed it to "nobody regrets more the fact that they were not with her"

It's an odd phrase that Kate and Gerry McCann have often used themselves ... "we regret that we were not with her at the moment she was taken" ( and I think I recall that Ma Healy has used too )

It's as if they've been coached to never, EVER, say the words 'left alone'


It's the mincing of words to avoid any responsilbilty for their willful neglect of three children which is getting on peoples' nerves.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby bomaris » Fri May 30, 2008 1:13 pm

Spartacus wrote:Since the begining, the McCann defenders in the media ( and on the forums ) have expressed outrage that the McCanns have been blamed for what happened that night

They made a MISTAKE, they protest ... and we all make mistakes. They made a mistake and they'll suffer and pay for it for the rest of their lives, it's inhumane to critisise them for it now, they plead

Even Clarence Mitchell said it to John Gaunt ( it's on you-tube ) .. here's a direct transcript :

"Nobody regrets more the fact that they lef... they were not with her when she was taken than they themselves. It is something they will live for for the rest of their lives, and they would accept that they made a mistake on the night"

... and yet yesterday Clarence had this to say :

"If there is any suggestion of neglect charges being considered that will be vigorously denied because legal advice that Kate and Gerry have received both in Portugal and Britain is that legally speaking everything they were doing that week was well within the bounds of responsible parenting"

So it WASN'T a mistake then ? ... they were perfectly at liberty to do what they did that week ... and are perfectly at liberty to continue doing it in the future ( as are we all ) ?

This is going to be difficult for the vast majority of McCann defenders who have acknowledged that they shouldn't have left the children alone like that ... because now the McCanns are saying there was absolutely nothing wrong with it


Yep - excellent point Spartacus. They can no longer BS on this. They've now got to either admit guilt or deny wrongdoing.

Clarrie and co. have tried to imply that a "mistake" can never be an offence in law. But that is rubbish as a moment's reflection will demonstrate. If I drive up the wrong way on a motorway without intending to I have indeed "made a mistake" but I am also guilty of dangerous driving (or similar) - especially if my mistake results in someone's death.

The McCanns were by any measure reckless in abandoning their children in the way they did. They are well educated medical professionals. They both know, far better than most people, all the risks of injury that can result from leaving tiny children alone and untended for 30 minutes or more.

Of course with their legalistic statements they haven't even admitted to a mistake and now it seems they are going to press on with a "responsible parenting" defence.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby meathgoldcoaster » Fri May 30, 2008 1:22 pm

It is a very detached way of speaking and this would seem to have been the first thing they asked their lawyers, so they must of been aware it looked bad, as they have been saying this from te 4 or 5 May and saying they were advised.

The phrase that wrecks my head is when Kate said 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' I do not know of anyone that would refer to anything that happened to their children by saying that hindsight is a wonderful thing, even if they break their arm, let alone disappear off the face of the earth.

Whatever gets you through the night I suppose.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby jjp » Fri May 30, 2008 1:22 pm

cassen wrote:Spartacus, the key words are 'legally speaking'.
We are 'morally speaking', and that makes the whole difference. When it suits somebody, he can lower the moral level far down than he would normally do. I have trouble making myself clear but it's not difficult (I hope) to see what I mean.

It does not ring true either morally or legally for me.

CM's statement about it being "well within the bounds of responsible parenting" does not tally with this line from 24 Horas today.
According to the law, whoever endangers another person's life, "abandoning her in a defenceless manner, whenever the agent had the duty to guard, watch or assist her", may be committing this crime.


I cannot work out either what moral or legal code would accept that what the McCanns did was in any way responsible. To my mind it was utterly selfish and it appears it may well have been illegal as well.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby meathgoldcoaster » Fri May 30, 2008 1:37 pm

jjp wrote:
cassen wrote:Spartacus, the key words are 'legally speaking'.
We are 'morally speaking', and that makes the whole difference. When it suits somebody, he can lower the moral level far down than he would normally do. I have trouble making myself clear but it's not difficult (I hope) to see what I mean.

It does not ring true either morally or legally for me.

CM's statement about it being "well within the bounds of responsible parenting" does not tally with this line from 24 Horas today.
According to the law, whoever endangers another person's life, "abandoning her in a defenceless manner, whenever the agent had the duty to guard, watch or assist her", may be committing this crime.


I cannot work out either what moral or legal code would accept that what the McCanns did was in any way responsible. To my mind it was utterly selfish and it appears it may well have been illegal as well.



JJP I have a feeling is that they have kept to the story of checking often and from what Childline said, although not recommended, it would not seem to be illegal, therefore within the bounds of responsible parenting, although it may be different in Portugal.

I would imagine that in the UK, the only proof that they had done the wrong thing would be evidence on the child for example injury etc, then a parent would be charged, but if the kid went missing and it was genuine I owuld not see a prosecution as it would sem very cruel to the parents, if you get what I mean.

There would have to be a law that says children cannot be left alone for more then 15 minutes for thme to be prosecuted, most parents are charged for neglect I would imagine, which would not need the abandonment.

Perhaps the legal definition of abandonment is for a greater period of time then 15 - 30 minute intervals if you know what I mean, if that has been decided in previous cases, as 'within the realms of responsible parenting' sounds like Judge/legal talk. I wonder if that phrase was tapped into Lexis Nexus, would we see the where this phrase came from?

You are right, what they have done should be wrong within any ethical or legal code, but children are still considered to be possessions by the law and it would seem by quite a few adults.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby free3 » Fri May 30, 2008 1:39 pm

not a mistake , if it was a mistake ,its one they made every night . any reasonable ,responsible parent would have thought long and hard about leaving kids alone, and came to the conclusion that it was unsafe, selfish, wrong and damn right neglectfull.
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