So was it a mistake or not ?

Madeleine Beth McCann went missing from PDL in Portugal on the 3rd May 2007, there are so many unanswered questions, please discuss

Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby highqualitywristband » Fri May 30, 2008 1:47 pm

meathgoldcoaster wrote:The phrase that wrecks my head is when Kate said 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' I do not know of anyone that would refer to anything that happened to their children by saying that hindsight is a wonderful thing, even if they break their arm, let alone disappear off the face of the earth.


Playing the victim and forgetting the only victim in the case, her little daughter... "You know, hindsight is a wonderful thing - who would have known that Portugal is a haven for pedophiles! Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!" *sneer*
"It's an interesting concept, isn't it?" Gerry McCann on the case of Elisabeth Fritzl, held captive in a cellar and abused by her father for 24 years.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby Flashing Balde » Fri May 30, 2008 1:49 pm

Spartacus wrote:Since the begining, the McCann defenders in the media ( and on the forums ) have expressed outrage that the McCanns have been blamed for what happened that night

They made a MISTAKE, they protest ... and we all make mistakes. They made a mistake and they'll suffer and pay for it for the rest of their lives, it's inhumane to critisise them for it now, they plead



This is the main thrust of the defence for people trusting in the parents, I have often heard, not so much these days though that many people do the same as they did and they think its perfectly acceptable.

What I have always said to this is that it doesn't matter whether two parents or two thousand parents do the same as the McCanns, the number of people who do the same is irrelevent, and vast numbers do not make it right. It just makes a lot of parents b****y stupid to do it and they are wrong to do it.

Common sense dictates that leaving small children alone for any amount of time is damn stupid. I'm not a parent and even I can see that.

But we know that the McCanns are not stupid because they are doctors and also because we have been told by Martin Blunt and Clarence that Gerry and Kate are intelligent people. SO if it's not stupidity that made them leave the children alone it can only be one other thing; selfishness.

Selfish because they put themselves before their children and I thought any parent had children with the express intent to always put them first no matter what.

Selfish because they also went out and got drunk so even if there was an accident they would have been next to useless to deal with it.

And lastly selfish, because people of their apparent intelligence and social standing should have realised from the medical backgrounds alone just how much damage a young child can do itself in a small amount of time.

People who try to defend the McCanns on this issue have nothing to base their arguement on.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby jjp » Fri May 30, 2008 1:53 pm

meathgoldcoaster wrote:
jjp wrote:
cassen wrote:Spartacus, the key words are 'legally speaking'.
We are 'morally speaking', and that makes the whole difference. When it suits somebody, he can lower the moral level far down than he would normally do. I have trouble making myself clear but it's not difficult (I hope) to see what I mean.

It does not ring true either morally or legally for me.

CM's statement about it being "well within the bounds of responsible parenting" does not tally with this line from 24 Horas today.
According to the law, whoever endangers another person's life, "abandoning her in a defenceless manner, whenever the agent had the duty to guard, watch or assist her", may be committing this crime.


I cannot work out either what moral or legal code would accept that what the McCanns did was in any way responsible. To my mind it was utterly selfish and it appears it may well have been illegal as well.



JJP I have a feeling is that they have kept to the story of checking often and from what Childline said, although not recommended, it would not seem to be illegal, therefore within the bounds of responsible parenting, although it may be different in Portugal.

I would imagine that in the UK, the only proof that they had done the wrong thing would be evidence on the child for example injury etc, then a parent would be charged, but if the kid went missing and it was genuine I owuld not see a prosecution as it would sem very cruel to the parents, if you get what I mean.

There would have to be a law that says children cannot be left alone for more then 15 minutes for thme to be prosecuted, most parents are charged for neglect I would imagine, which would not need the abandonment.

Perhaps the legal definition of abandonment is for a greater period of time then 15 - 30 minute intervals if you know what I mean, if that has been decided in previous cases, as 'within the realms of responsible parenting' sounds like Judge/legal talk. I wonder if that phrase was tapped into Lexis Nexus, would we see the where this phrase came from?

You are right, what they have done should be wrong within any ethical or legal code, but children are still considered to be possessions by the law and it would seem by quite a few adults.


I am not sure that a phonecall to an operator at Childline is sufficient to establish the thoughts of the organisation on the legality of the issue - perhaps it is not recommended as they believe it might leave parents open to prosecution as well as the children open to harm.

As for the legalistic phrases that CM is using - I suspect that they were developed by the McCanns legal team in the very early days of the case and have been developed as the months passed.

The Portuguese law seems to refer to leaving people alone and defenceless - maybe this would include an inability to protect herself against an intruder/abductor? It appears that the police are looking at other alternatives such as Madeleine having come to harm - then that might be sufficient to suggest abandonment. I do not know if case law in Portugal exists where length of time left alone has been relevant but I do believe that this case should come to court and publicity about the dangers ensue as otherwise there will be a supposition that this was reasonable parenting.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby jjp » Fri May 30, 2008 1:57 pm

Flashing Balde wrote:
Spartacus wrote:Since the begining, the McCann defenders in the media ( and on the forums ) have expressed outrage that the McCanns have been blamed for what happened that night

They made a MISTAKE, they protest ... and we all make mistakes. They made a mistake and they'll suffer and pay for it for the rest of their lives, it's inhumane to critisise them for it now, they plead



This is the main thrust of the defence for people trusting in the parents, I have often heard, not so much these days though that many people do the same as they did and they think its perfectly acceptable.

What I have always said to this is that it doesn't matter whether two parents or two thousand parents do the same as the McCanns, the number of people who do the same is irrelevent, and vast numbers do not make it right. It just makes a lot of parents b****y stupid to do it and they are wrong to do it.

Common sense dictates that leaving small children alone for any amount of time is damn stupid. I'm not a parent and even I can see that.

But we know that the McCanns are not stupid because they are doctors and also because we have been told by Martin Blunt and Clarence that Gerry and Kate are intelligent people. SO if it's not stupidity that made them leave the children alone it can only be one other thing; selfishness.

Selfish because they put themselves before their children and I thought any parent had children with the express intent to always put them first no matter what.

Selfish because they also went out and got drunk so even if there was an accident they would have been next to useless to deal with it.

And lastly selfish, because people of their apparent intelligence and social standing should have realised from the medical backgrounds alone just how much damage a young child can do itself in a small amount of time.

People who try to defend the McCanns on this issue have nothing to base their arguement on.


I would agree almost in total with this statement (one aspect I am not sure about is whether they got drunk - I am not sure I have seen any actual evidence of this).

I have been expressing my belief that this was selfishness on the part of the McCanns for months now. There is no justification for putting yourselves before your children in such a selfish manner.

It was apparent in the leaving of the children exposed to danger every night of the holiday and has been apparent in the way that the case has focussed on the parents ever since - to the detriment of the need for justice for their daughter.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby margaret » Fri May 30, 2008 2:00 pm

They know it's wrong. Let's face it they refused to go back to Portugal because they were afraid of being arrested.....

Arrested for nelgect? It was within the bounds of reasonable parenting.
Arrested for manslaughter etc? Maddie isn't supposd to be dead.

So why did the refuse to go back?! :wink:

They KNOW they did wrong and it's easier for them to deny neglect since they've got the likes of Fiona Phillips and Pinch & Judy et al speakign up for the despicable pair... :twisted:
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby artemis1013 » Fri May 30, 2008 2:01 pm

They made a selfish choice, one no sane resposbible loving parent would make. Selfish assholes should be jailed now.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby csiturkey » Fri May 30, 2008 2:05 pm

lets face it, clarrie doesn't know what he says from one minute to the next...

bump for contradictory clarrie!
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby Stevo » Fri May 30, 2008 2:10 pm

Here's the fundamental issue here....

The neglect issue was probably 99% NOT why Madeleine isn't here today but it reflects 99% of the topic of discussion. IMO Madeleine died/got abducted/got concealed/disposed of etc. but however and for whatever reason she is not here today has NOTHING to do with neglect.

Neglect is the McCann and Tapas group's alibi - pure and simple.

Whatever really did happen is being covered by the abandoned children scenario in the hope that this would be glossed over and forgotten about.

We have known for a very long time that the police have always thought Madeleine died in the apartment. The mobile phone records may not be legally admissible in court but the chances are that the PJ and prosecutor know what the content of those calls is. This is probably why Mr Amaral was so confidently able to tell us that the truth of the lie will be revealed.

Watch out for the content of those mobile phone messages being revealed. If they can't be used as evidence in court then there's nothing to stop their content being revealed in the public domain.

I feel confident that we will all find out what those messages contained.

Neglect IMO was the lesser of two charges. We keep hearing little clues that the way Madeleine died was pretty gruesome. This, combined with words like homicide are extremely powerful and tell us that whoever covered this up would do anything rather than go to jail for being labelled a child killer. So, what would you do? You'd easily concoct and go along with a story about leaving your kids unattended because it's the lesser of two evils.
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby margaret » Fri May 30, 2008 2:23 pm

Stevo, l believe (well l hope...) that Maddie died when the McCanns were out, so the blood we heard about under the tile took a while to happen as it seeped there.

If she died while they were out it's neglect pure and simple, so are you saying you think someone (K or G) was directly responsible for her death?
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Re: So was it a mistake or not ?

Postby Velma » Fri May 30, 2008 3:32 pm

So, they are still entitled to leave the twins home alone, provided they do regular checks?
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