MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Madeleine Beth McCann went missing from PDL in Portugal on the 3rd May 2007, there are so many unanswered questions, please discuss

Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby Whatever » Fri May 30, 2008 4:16 pm

nessie wrote:I am sure I read somewhere that creche and nursery was closed 1 day a week to allow staff a day off anyone else remember this and if so was the day it was closed mentioned.


Yes, I read that too, but never got to the bottom of it and concluded it must have been Sundays, but.....you never know.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby mercedes2 » Fri May 30, 2008 4:20 pm

Mark Warner.....creche 6 days.

Maybe they don't operate on Saturday....main changeover day for flights etc.

And wasn't Madeleine supposed to be in the end of week dance they had rehearsed for the Friday.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby helena » Fri May 30, 2008 4:20 pm

I've actually posted this on CW's thread.At one point i remember reading that kate said in an interview(can't remember which one sorry) that the kids only visited the creche in the morning and they had a "family "afternoon together
That was only mentioned once than never again
I thought at the time "what"1)she was in the creche and the nanny gave her high tea 2)she got picked up at 5.30 3)she got picked up at 6
4)she wasn't in the creche in the afternoon :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby Ismellarat » Fri May 30, 2008 4:21 pm

I only post this as we have another no news day: as it is speculation only and expect no reaction

If you hate 'What ifs' pls don't read on:

Let's presume there is an in/out record
What if..instead of G/K writing into column

a: Drs. McCann

and in column b): Sean/Amelie/Madeleine

they only put: Drs. McCann (3).

So at creche opening time...all three toddlers where seen by some/all creche staff....
just as G&K turn to go on their very long walk that morn....Madeleine turns round and
runs towards mum & dad: 'I want to be with you'

especially after the alleged abandonment/crying episode the previous night.

Gerry picks Madeleine up...and mouthes something to Pennington et al...about bringing her back later......

Would the record McCann-3 be altered ? I don't think so

What if some sighting early in the morning did occur at the creche
but Madeleine never did stay at the creche on May 3rd.

Maybe the clock started ticking shortly after the bona-fide sign in process.

And after the disappearance MW with the help of Bell Pottinger...needed to ascertain
that for the entire period of the creche times ALL children present (acc. to the records) were looked after and cared for.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby sentinel » Fri May 30, 2008 4:24 pm

mercedes2 wrote:I'm sure the PJ have concrete evidence whether Madeleine was in the creche or not, and have done from early in the investigation.



yes.
if she was there or she wasn't I'm sure they know.

And i always had the feeling that if she wasn't, there would be people already looking at the world through bars.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby mercedes2 » Fri May 30, 2008 4:25 pm

Agree senti.....the voice of reason and logic :wink:
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby sentinel » Fri May 30, 2008 4:28 pm

Ismellarat wrote:I only post this as we have another no news day: as it is speculation only and expect no reaction

If you hate 'What ifs' pls don't read on:

Let's presume there is an in/out record
What if..instead of G/K writing into column

a: Drs. McCann

and in column b): Sean/Amelie/Madeleine

they only put: Drs. McCann (3).

So at creche opening time...all three toddlers where seen by some/all creche staff....
just as G&K turn to go on their very long walk that morn....Madeleine turns round and
runs towards mum & dad: 'I want to be with you'

especially after the alleged abandonment/crying episode the previous night.

Gerry picks Madeleine up...and mouthes something to Pennington et al...about bringing her back later......

Would the record McCann-3 be altered ? I don't think so

What if some sighting early in the morning did occur at the creche
but Madeleine never did stay at the creche on May 3rd.

Maybe the clock started ticking shortly after the bona-fide sign in process.

And after the disappearance MW with the help of Bell Pottinger...needed to ascertain
that for the entire period of the creche times ALL children present (acc. to the records) were looked after and cared for.


I'm with whatsit.

i think the "records" are irrelevant.

THe confirmation of creche absence or presence comes down to people.

For goodness sake, there were other children there, old enough to know who they were playing with.

If she wasn't there, it must be known, and to be honest, the fact that we have never heard that she wasn't suggests strongly to me that she was.

Of course, the investigators could be holding something back.....



PS EDIT:

going back to ismelly's postulation. let's not forget that the investigation was focussing on the "missing 6 hours" which suggests that it was leaked that she was not there in the afternoon.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby Whatever » Fri May 30, 2008 4:32 pm

sentinel wrote:
Ismellarat wrote:I only post this as we have another no news day: as it is speculation only and expect no reaction

If you hate 'What ifs' pls don't read on:

Let's presume there is an in/out record
What if..instead of G/K writing into column

a: Drs. McCann

and in column b): Sean/Amelie/Madeleine

they only put: Drs. McCann (3).

So at creche opening time...all three toddlers where seen by some/all creche staff....
just as G&K turn to go on their very long walk that morn....Madeleine turns round and
runs towards mum & dad: 'I want to be with you'

especially after the alleged abandonment/crying episode the previous night.

Gerry picks Madeleine up...and mouthes something to Pennington et al...about bringing her back later......

Would the record McCann-3 be altered ? I don't think so

What if some sighting early in the morning did occur at the creche
but Madeleine never did stay at the creche on May 3rd.

Maybe the clock started ticking shortly after the bona-fide sign in process.

And after the disappearance MW with the help of Bell Pottinger...needed to ascertain
that for the entire period of the creche times ALL children present (acc. to the records) were looked after and cared for.


I'm with whatsit.

i think the "records" are irrelevant.

THe confirmation of creche absence or presence comes down to people.

For goodness sake, there were other children there, old enough to know who they were playing with.

If she wasn't there, it must be known, and to be honest, the fact that we have never heard that she wasn't suggests strongly to me that she was.

Of course, the investigators could be holding something back.....


They could indeed. I agree that if she wasn't there, it's surprising that we've not heard even the slightest peep about it ..... but, nor have we had anything 'concrete' that she was. I certainly don't trust the actress in the beret and Nanny Baker appears to be on a witness protection programme.
'okay, we've tried really hard and we've come up with nothing' - K. McCann
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby Arguida » Fri May 30, 2008 4:34 pm

sentinel wrote:
mercedes2 wrote:I'm sure the PJ have concrete evidence whether Madeleine was in the creche or not, and have done from early in the investigation.



yes.
if she was there or she wasn't I'm sure they know.

And i always had the feeling that if she wasn't, there would be people already looking at the world through bars.


I don't think you are right about that one. Sure the police could have arrested them for neglect right away but they did not. They have been trying to make a case for a lot more than that and it takes time. Was it an accident or was it a deliberate action takes time to assess and prove.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby lincoln green » Fri May 30, 2008 4:39 pm

Whatever wrote:
Dreyfus wrote:
Whatever wrote:I can accept that the staff or whoever would be willing to retrospectively fill Madeleine's name in the register if someone was certain that they'd seen her inside the creche, but I can't believe they'd be willing to do it solely on the basis that the Mcc's claimed she was there, (but no staff member actually saw her) ......or at least, if they were willing to add her name, someone would mention this to the police at some point. Surely??


Would you?

I honestly don't know if I would.

What may have happened is that none of the staff actually remembers if Madeleine was there or not on that particular afternoon, remember they would be being asked about this a good 24 hours after the event.

The Bell Pottinger site advertises our friend Alex Woolfall's useful PR skills honed on all those unfortunate events like rail crashes. Alex knows that in cases like this the first thing you need to do is make sure the paperwork's right.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that he actively encouraged or told MW employees to falsify the records, he probably didn't need to. It would just be made known to staff in PdL that on his arrival he would be expecting to see the attendance register for the creche, which, of course, he would be expecting to see completed as per MW Company guidelines with the IN and OUT times logged for each child.



Yes, but the crime under investigation wasn't that Madeleine had been abducted from the creche. Surely, the police would have been initially interested in who saw her last. Then they worked backwards at some point and would have asked the creche staff, fully aware that registers and the like can be inaccurate. If asked the question, 'Did you see Madeleine here on May 3rd?' why would anyone lie? People generally tell the police the truth, especially if they have nothing to hide. What's the problem for MW if Madeleine's name wasn't on the register and no-one remembers seeing her in the creche? None. What would be the incentive for falsfying the records? she didn't die of some accident she had in the creche earlier, she wasn't poisoned or molested in the creche. These are not the claims being made. The only value in falsifying the records would be if the staff all said 'yes, we had her here on May 3rd' but the register had no record of that. Even then, the police wouldn't give a shoite about some missing tick in a register. If the kid was there, someone would be willing to swear under oath that they saw her. If not, no-one in their right mind would do such a thing. What would they? Or am I missing something here?

If someone dies as a result of unguarded machinery I can see why those reponsible for H&S would fiddle the records. Ditto, hospital mishaps, food poisoning etc, doors being left open on Cross Channel ferries....but Madeleine's disappearance had nothing to do with the Creche did it? The parents claimed they put her to bed and then she was taken from it.


You're right :D

And in a way that ties in with my questions over the last photo (sorry for re-introducing that old chestnut :oops: ). It's not the photo itself, it's the choice of times either half past one or half past 2.

I think I've read that the afternoon creche started at 2.30? :? So a photo time of 2.30 would mean a late arrival at the creche, surely -the photo looks unhurried and relaxed and feet would need to be dried and shoes put on before heading back creche-wards. And a late arrival at the creche would be something that would stick in the mind of the Nanny most probably. In any event it is something that stands a chance of being remarked on and it isn't something you would do deliberately if you were trying to fudge attendance somehow.

Also it would mean the taker of the photo should remember the time - either another hour relaxing by the pool or a bit of a dash to get back to the creche. Not important in the general scheme of things but as an event from the last hours spent with your daughter then memorable.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby sentinel » Fri May 30, 2008 4:40 pm

Arguida wrote:
sentinel wrote:
mercedes2 wrote:I'm sure the PJ have concrete evidence whether Madeleine was in the creche or not, and have done from early in the investigation.



yes.
if she was there or she wasn't I'm sure they know.

And i always had the feeling that if she wasn't, there would be people already looking at the world through bars.


I don't think you are right about that one. Sure the police could have arrested them for neglect right away but they did not. They have been trying to make a case for a lot more than that and it takes time. Was it an accident or was it a deliberate action takes time to assess and prove.



imagine a little girl is abducted from her bedroom in portugal.

next day the police go round the resort asking people what they saw.

"oh that's funny officer, the little girl had been here in the creche all week, but she wasn't here yesterday,
a) her mum and dad told us she was sick.
b) JT's daughter was here instead!!!!!!!
c) none of us, or any of the other children noticed if she was here or not.

PJ; "oh, that's funny, because the parents said she as at the creche all day yesterday" We had better go and have another word with them, then we shall be back to check with everyone here.


Get a grip.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby tylersmum » Fri May 30, 2008 4:43 pm

Gerry or Kate would have had to sign Madeleine in to the creche probably whilst other parents were about without anyone noticing that Madeleine was absent.One assumes that once the register is completed the names are added up and then there is a head count to see if the numbers tally.
Gerry would also have to put a bag on the peg with Madeleine's name on it in the creche otherwise it would act as a shadow board in a workshop.
Although the staff may be slack Gerry has got to stake his liberty on the fact that not only don't the staff notice Madeleine is missing but neither do the other children or parents.

Gerry would also have to pretend to pick up Madeleine when the creche closes.

Whilst he is pretending that Madeleine is at the creche Gerry and Kate are at the tennis courts and pool talking to JW and BO'D.Gerry tells them that he is going to pick Madeleine up from the creche and again if they decide to hang about or even go with Gerry to the creche Gerry is sunk.

It is strange that people consdider that Gerry is capable of pulling all this off but think that he wouldn't have risked carrying Madeleine through PDL after she was dead
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby miffed » Fri May 30, 2008 4:45 pm

sentinel wrote:Of course, the investigators could be holding something back...

And gagging relevant witnesses!

Madeleine not being in the creche the previous day, although highly suspicious, is not reason enough to arrest whomever they suspect.

Now the interesting question is: assume the detectives immediately ask around who last saw Madeleine. If it transpires that it was in fact quite a hazy picture, I wonder why there was such an extensive search - with boats, helicopters, dogs, etc. Did the investigators immediately start that line of enquiry or was it only when they became suspicious of the parents? If I remember correctly, suspicion from the police only became apparent to us after a couple of weeks when memories would have faded. Investigating an abduction - with the hope of still finding Madeleine alive - would probably only involve asking the immediate circle when someone had last seen Madeleine.
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby Fenugreek » Fri May 30, 2008 4:47 pm

The May 2nd scenario can only be true if Madeleine did not attend the creche at all, and everyone was aware of that. The objections to this are obvious, but not insurmountable.

The May 3rd early evening offers far too little time, in my judgement.

Perplexing!
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Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK V

Postby sentinel » Fri May 30, 2008 4:50 pm

miffed wrote:
sentinel wrote:Of course, the investigators could be holding something back...

And gagging relevant witnesses!

Madeleine not being in the creche the previous day, although highly suspicious, is not reason enough to arrest whomever they suspect.

Now the interesting question is: assume the detectives immediately ask around who last saw Madeleine. If it transpires that it was in fact quite a hazy picture, I wonder why there was such an extensive search - with boats, helicopters, dogs, etc. Did the investigators immediately start that line of enquiry or was it only when they became suspicious of the parents? If I remember correctly, suspicion from the police only became apparent to us after a couple of weeks when memories would have faded. Investigating an abduction - with the hope of still finding Madeleine alive - would probably only involve asking the immediate circle when someone had last seen Madeleine.



don't forget that members of the ocean club were interviewed. (how could we forget the pool guy)

the investigators would have been suspicious of everyone in the vicinity, and would (should) have ruled them out one by one.
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